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Greenland Dash 8 guides Twin Cessna to safety

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  • Greenland Dash 8 guides Twin Cessna to safety

    Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation


    Well done by the crew!!

  • #2
    This will sound like sour grapes...however exactly how much help can one airplane give another airplane?

    I'm guessing the Cessna still had a magnetic compass, and as evidenced here, the weather had to be mild enough for the two planes to see each other and mild enough for the Cessna to get down to the airport- as I can't see them following each other through clouds!

    That being said- perhaps it was something very simple, yet useful..."Follow me, ok, we're here, have a good day."

    I guess my point is that the 'heroism, and stories to be handed down from generation to generation" may be a bit over blown.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      and to pile on here...was the cessna twin REALLY flying without GPS? does anyone? $400 bucks can buy you an outstanding aviation capable garmin unit, so ZERO excuses

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
        and to pile on here...was the cessna twin REALLY flying without GPS? does anyone? $400 bucks can buy you an outstanding aviation capable garmin unit, so ZERO excuses
        It was flying WITH GPS only. All other instruments were out.
        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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        • #5
          Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
          It was flying WITH GPS only. All other instruments were out.
          Evidently they had something to keep the blue side up. Either an artificial horizon, or a turn indicator, or a good celphone with sensors and a good free PFD app, or the view out the windshield. With that and a GPS, you cannot be lost.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #6
            Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            It was flying WITH GPS only. All other instruments were out.
            So, let me REask my question (with prejudice)...

            What in the HELL was the airliner doing to help? If they had a GPS it should direct them to whatever airport they wanted, and I don't see any reasonable, practical safe way* that the 'escort' would help with keeping the Cessna right side up.

            *Yeah, sure I can imagine a really strange situation of haze but not clouds and no horizon...but, that's a pretty big stretch AND a bit dangerous to be flying formation with a plane load of passengers when you might suddenly loose each other visually.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              Evidently they had something to keep the blue side up. Either an artificial horizon, or a turn indicator, or a good celphone with sensors and a good free PFD app, or the view out the windshield. With that and a GPS, you should not be lost.
              Fixed.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                So, let me REask my question (with prejudice)...
                The Cesnna pilots had some form of GPS but were not local and weren't aware of the closer airport to which they were guided by the Dash 8. The Dash crew had them on TCAS and maintained 3000' vertical seperation above them on the approach. Toward the end of the approach they established visual with the Cessna. And this is Greenland. Plenty of cowboymanship up there.

                I understand your concern, but the Dash was fueled for a long diversion and with TCAS and mental concentration I don't think they added any real risk to the pax.

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                • #9
                  Let's break this down to a set of simple statements....

                  Two aircraft in the air.
                  Plane One is a twin on one engine and with malfunctioning instruments. Crew are not familiar with the area.
                  Plane Two is a commercial aircraft equipped with all the bells and whistles. Crew are familiar with the area.
                  Plane Two establishes safe visual contact with Plane One.
                  Plane Two crew escort Plane One crew to a safe landing.
                  Plane Two crew continue about their business with that warm, fuzzy feeling that you get when you know that you helped.

                  Job done. Home for tea and medals.
                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                    Plane Two establishes safe TCAS contact with Plane One.
                    Fixed. They didn't establish visual contact until shortly before landing.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Original report
                      Plane loses navigation
                      Wait, no, it has a GPS
                      Originally posted by Multiple folks, paraphrased
                      So what is the big deal here?
                      Originally posted by Brian, paraphrased
                      Um, no it had an engine out too, and lots of instrument failures
                      Originally posted by 3BS didn't actually post this
                      Ok, fine, buy the Airliner pilots a beer AND a steak dinner, give them a fancy certificate, put an article on Yahoo
                      Originally posted by Evan, paraphrased
                      Comments inferring no visual contact and a nifty insider acronym.
                      Originally posted by 3BS
                      Wow, this gets better every day
                      Ok, so the twin had lost an engine and reports of it losing all sorts of instruments, but had a GPS but they didn't know how to find airports, but they DID have a working TCAS (and know how to operate it) so they could play follow the nearby traffic to the airport...EDIT: The more I read Evan's comments, it's not clear if the Cessna had a TCAS or not...which if that is true...and the follow plane DID have visual contact, but the lead plane "never" had visual contact (until the end)...what?

                      Originally posted by 3BS
                      ...perhaps it was something very simple, yet useful..."Follow me, ok, we're here, have a good day."
                      Count me curious, but a tad grumpy on the vagueness of this 'developing' story- and an interesting disparity on what they did and didn't have to work with.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Count me curious, but a tad grumpy on the vagueness of this 'developing' story- and an interesting disparity on what they did and didn't have to work with.
                        The Dash had TCAS. All the Cessna needed was a working mode C transponder. The Dash could "see" the Cessna, and vectored the Cessna to the small airstrip where they both landed. SInce the Cessna was crippled, the Dash flew escort and made sure they got down ok. Why is that vague?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          ...Why is that vague?...
                          Of all the conflicting words in the thread above "all instruments failed**", "Oh, yeah, that includes an engine" "well no, they had GPS", "Well no, the transponder was working" "there was no visual contact"...

                          ...never (until now) were the words, "The airliner used their TCAS display to give 'vectors' to the small plane" uttered.

                          In other words, Everything except the core fact of what transpired was offered up.

                          If your final comment is correct, great, but given all of the other conflicting info, I guess I'm waiting for the final report.

                          **Fascinating statement- that would require electrical and vacuum failure AND failure of a pitot tube air line and failure of alternate static source mechanism and physical damage to the magnetic compass.

                          The original report was "lost all navigation"...Ok that might mean an electrical issue and likely, a transponder failure.

                          I know the gray-area concept that an engine failed along with causing several other problems that were challenging the pilot, and the airliner helped guide them, just isn't sexy enough for news headlines...PILOT LOSES ALL INSTRUMENTS, SAVED BY HEROIC EFFORTS OF AIRLINER PILOTS!!!!!
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                            I know the gray-area concept that an engine failed along with causing several other problems that were challenging the pilot, and the airliner helped guide them, just isn't sexy enough for news headlines...PILOT LOSES ALL INSTRUMENTS, SAVED BY HEROIC EFFORTS OF AIRLINER PILOTS!!!!!
                            Where did you read that? All I'm seeing is that they were "having problems with their navigational equipment". The altimeters were were apparently working just fine, as was whatever form of GPS they had. Maybe these were the newer breed of magenta line pilots and had a modern glass nav system installed, and when that failed, had no idea what the old VOR and the ADF needles were for, and they didn't have database or charts for the nearby airstrips. Dunno...

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              Where did you read that?
                              It would appear that you should read this thread, and that I should re-read Av-herald on a daily basis for updates.

                              Then you would see what I am talking about and I would see what you are talking about.

                              This story has evolved greatly from Hongmng's first posting- and it's important to put these comments in the context of the order in which they came out.

                              Original story: Plane lost navigation, so airliner guided it to airport..."Well Done", "Boy, will those passengers have stories to tell" (in Av Herald comments).

                              Jetpics snippits:

                              -Plane lost all instruments

                              -Gabe, 3BS- Umm, I question that it lost ALL of them.

                              -Well, they had a GPS (and Gabe thought they had a TC or AI, and I thought they had a Compass)

                              -Gabe, 3BS, TeeVee- GPS? So, why'd they have to follow an airliner?

                              -Well it lost an engine too...you know that can kind of get in the way of navigating...

                              -There was no visual contact until the very end

                              -3BS "Huwuh?"
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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