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Aerosucre B-727 crash

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    But I was also wondering why the seemingly deliberate turn to the right when the wise thing would be to first accelerate and then climb (and retract flaps if possible). Perhaps uncommanded?
    Perhaps the pilots here could chime in. I'm guessing that the at lower speed, or while turning, the plane would have been harder to control with a missing flap like that? I also imagine landing an overloaded fully fueled plane on a short runway without flaps deployed would also be a challenge?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      But I was also wondering why the seemingly deliberate turn to the right when the wise thing would be to first accelerate and then climb (and retract flaps if possible). Perhaps uncommanded?
      Yes, the aircraft is "spiraling" to the right. now we know why he is spiraling to the right, there is more lift on the left wing, and zero lift on the right wing. A very catastrophic situation.
      A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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      • #18
        Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
        Yes, the aircraft is "spiraling" to the right. now we know why he is spiraling to the right, there is more lift on the left wing, and zero lift on the right wing. A very catastrophic situation.
        At the very end, yes, perhaps an accelerated stall, but following the first turn he appears to be holding altitude for about half a minute, so I don't see how that can be a wing stall. Asymmetrical lift perhaps.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          But I was also wondering why the seemingly deliberate turn to the right when the wise thing would be to first accelerate and then climb (and retract flaps if possible). Perhaps uncommanded?
          That was my point. The missing flap my have banked the plane without pilot's intervention. In fact, that's what it WILL do unless we have pilot (corrective) intervention, and we don;t know who good would the roll authority be at these slow speeds/ high AoA, to counteract a huge panel of triple-slotted fowler flaps (acknowledged, with a relatively short moment arm compared with the high-speed ailerons, roll spoilers and slow-speed ailerons). Another point is that it is very likely that this damage would have also damaged a couple of hydraulic systems (those serving this flap section) and rendered the whole flaps off service, and impossible to retract (because, as minimum, flaps asymmetry).

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Schwartz View Post
            Looking at the video, it doesn't look like the fence directly ripped off the flap, but it could have damaged it to the point that it ripped off later. It is also hard to tell from the video, but it looks like there might have been a bit of terrain (small trees) on the right side right after the fence, but I can't quite see it from the video.
            I have heard comments that the plane my have hit a small brick construction (shed?) which reportedly can be seen in other "successful" zero-margin take-off videos of this plane at this runway, and that this might have torn the flaps as well as caused other damage.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              That was my point. The missing flap my have banked the plane without pilot's intervention. In fact, that's what it WILL do unless we have pilot (corrective) intervention, and we don;t know who good would the roll authority be at these slow speeds/ high AoA, to counteract a huge panel of triple-slotted fowler flaps (acknowledged, with a relatively short moment arm compared with the high-speed ailerons, roll spoilers and slow-speed ailerons). Another point is that it is very likely that this damage would have also damaged a couple of hydraulic systems (those serving this flap section) and rendered the whole flaps off service, and impossible to retract (because, as minimum, flaps asymmetry).
              I am not sure the hydraulics would extend into the flaps themselves. I doubt the pilots knew they had lost a flap, and I would guess they would have wanted to keep them deployed to maintain lift at low speed/high AoA. Your point about roll authority is probably true and I doubt the pilots would have realized that their minimum safe/controllable speed was now a lot higher than normal as a result of the damage.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                I have heard comments that the plane my have hit a small brick construction (shed?) which reportedly can be seen in other "successful" zero-margin take-off videos of this plane at this runway, and that this might have torn the flaps as well as caused other damage.
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Schwartz View Post
                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]6971[/ATTACH]
                  Schwartz, is that picture from the same aircraft?, the right wing flap appears to be attached.
                  Kind of weird.
                  A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    But I was also wondering why the seemingly deliberate turn to the right when the wise thing would be to first accelerate and then climb (and retract flaps if possible). Perhaps uncommanded?
                    You sure are worried about that. I'm sure it was a conscious decision to turn, in violation of your memory checklist for when you have an over run. Just like the Delta 191 guys turned towards that water tank.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      You sure are worried about that. I'm sure it was a conscious decision to turn, in violation of your memory checklist for when you have an over run. Just like the Delta 191 guys turned towards that water tank.
                      Oh well, apparently you have never been in a real emergency. Sometimes adrenaline deletes everything from your memory. Checklists, are not priorities when you have a catastrophic situation in your hands such as fire or smoke or over running the runway and you got FOD in number one and number three engines, part of your flaps are gone, the hydraulics are gone and your altitude is only 1,500 ft.
                      A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
                        Schwartz, is that picture from the same aircraft?, the right wing flap appears to be attached.
                        Kind of weird.
                        No sorry, that is from the video of the flight in October, where the plane just cleared the fence. I don't think I would ever stand on the end of the runway like those guys filming did. Clearly these pilots were flying the margin, but then, I think they were a bit unlucky to lose the whole flap.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Schwartz View Post
                          No sorry, that is from the video of the flight in October, where the plane just cleared the fence. I don't think I would ever stand on the end of the runway like those guys filming did. Clearly these pilots were flying the margin, but then, I think they were a bit unlucky to lose the whole flap.
                          Here is a better video of the same takeoff in October. The hut is clearly shown, but it is more toward the outside of the wing. From these shots, that inner flap looks pretty small. From the damaged photo in the air, it looks like they totally lost the inner flap and part of the middle one as well. The fence could have damaged it and then the wind ripped it off later.

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                          Video, teilen, Kamerahandy, Videohandy, kostenlos, hochladen

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Schwartz View Post
                            Here is a better video of the same takeoff in October. The hut is clearly shown, but it is more toward the outside of the wing. From these shots, that inner flap looks pretty small. From the damaged photo in the air, it looks like they totally lost the inner flap and part of the middle one as well. The fence could have damaged it and then the wind ripped it off later.

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]6973[/ATTACH]

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syl3tCqKbSs
                            Ok thanks. That is the little brick house Gabriel just mentioned above
                            A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
                              Ok thanks. That is the little brick house Gabriel just mentioned above
                              Yep, it looks like Gabriel said. This video shows it more clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_byvmyHWA14

                              Looking at the previous successful takeoff, it didn't look so close to the fuselage, but in this video, that structure gets clobbered, you can see how low the flap is, and you see the structure disintegrate/crumble as the plane goes by. That is probably also the bang that you hear. If they had steered a tad to the left, they might have come out better. High risk + bad luck. I wonder if we'll ever get cockpit transcripts.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
                                Oh well, apparently you have never been in a real emergency. Sometimes adrenaline deletes everything from your memory. Checklists, are not priorities when you have a catastrophic situation in your hands such as fire or smoke or over running the runway and you got FOD in number one and number three engines, part of your flaps are gone, the hydraulics are gone and your altitude is only 1,500 ft.
                                Elevon:

                                It's largely out of character for me, but I was being sarcastic. However, I totally appreciate your reply.

                                Bumping over the ground realizing you just failed to takeoff and smacking brick buildings and then to sit here and ask, "I don't understand why they made a slight right turn?"
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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