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Thread: Aerosucre B-727 crash

  1. #41
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I think a more effective strategy would be to build speed until you can retract flaps, but look where they are! There isn't much nose-lowering you can afford without mowing through some trees. The best chance you have to gain airspeed is to stay at a shallow climb until you get at least above 200', and keep it wings level, which is where the conundrum really lies...
    So, I disagree in that they successfully took off and climbed and made it a few miles- with the plane somewhat in control...they DID what you said they should do and got beyond the trees -other than your slight obsession with the right turn, which was probably due to the loss of the flap.

    AND it's bad, arm-chair QB of me to suggest that they could have done different...They flew a pretty long way until they lost it.

    I do always wonder about AA 191- Gabe makes it sound so simple...just a little more airspeed and they could have flown away and maybe retract everything...so, pure speculation here, they were dutifully slowing up and configuring the plane for landing and got too slow to deal with the flap asymmetry.

    ...Then again, maybe the pilot was being ITS like using all sorts of fundamentals and procedures at the highest levels of competence and the hydraulic fluid ran out.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    ...Then again, maybe the pilot was being ITS like using all sorts of fundamentals and procedures at the highest levels of competence and the hydraulic fluid ran out.
    That may have been part of the problem. The 727 is built like a complex mechanical watch, with plenty of procedure to know and follow in a scenario like this. But it has alternate (electric) flap retraction and mechanical reversion on both sets of ailerons (and the outer ones are functional when the flaps are extended) so the only roll control surfaces you lose even if both A and B hydraulics are lost are the roll spoilers. The key thing you might lose here is s i t u a t i o n a l a w a r e n e s s. I don't know what the flap indications would be if you tear off a flap and I'm pretty certain there isn't a ripped off flap procedure. Boeing apparently did not design the 727 with hairbrained stunts and brick huts in mind. I suppose the first thing ITS would do is crank open the window and ash his cigar to gauge the angle of attack, but that would have cost him valuable time...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    So, I disagree in that they successfully took off and climbed and made it a few miles- with the plane somewhat in control...they DID what you said they should do and got beyond the trees -other than your slight obsession with the right turn, which was probably due to the loss of the flap.

    AND it's bad, arm-chair QB of me to suggest that they could have done different...They flew a pretty long way until they lost it.

    I do always wonder about AA 191- Gabe makes it sound so simple...just a little more airspeed and they could have flown away and maybe retract everything...so, pure speculation here, they were dutifully slowing up and configuring the plane for landing and got too slow to deal with the flap asymmetry.

    ...Then again, maybe the pilot was being ITS like using all sorts of fundamentals and procedures at the highest levels of competence and the hydraulic fluid ran out.
    After seeing this ac nail the little brick hut, I also immediately thought of AA191. Different ac and situations of course, but the 'going too slow' not knowing flap/slat situation definitely brought me back to the ORD crash though obviously with differences in circumstance etc.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    The preliminary report is out (in Spanish).

    This plot is taken from that report. Obviously the aircraft was capable of level flight for some time after losing the right inboard flap. They also lost the right MLG, the #3 engine and the A hydraulics. As they would have been dealing with a lot of damage control right about then, and the fatal spiral starts as a gradual turn, I am wondering if that spiral was the result of inattention by a distracted crew rather than uncontrollability.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I am wondering if that spiral was the result of inattention by a distracted crew rather than uncontrollability.
    I am wondering if the turn was the result of control failure rather than inattention. The weather was severe VMC, and it's not like they were on autopilot, fat, dumb and happy, in total darkness distracted by burnt out lightbulb. I'm betting that one poor PF was totally locked in and white knuckled trying very hard to somewhat correctly operate the rather screwed up flying machine.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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