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Thread: Fake??? No way!!!

  1. #21
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    I flew IBERIA last week landing TENERIFE NORTE , we approached little bit like that . IB pilots are really good !!
    B 26

  2. #22
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    It would really surprise me if these pictures were fake. And that worries me a lot! I made comments on the pictures a few days ago but they didn't came trough (yet?). So I give it another go on this forum.

    First of all, these pictures are just great. Technically that is. But these are pictures of an event that never should have taken place! You just don't plunge towards a runway with passengers on board at an angle of 15° nose down. It might be great fun for the pilots and the man on the jumpseat, but the passengers who are actually paying the flight (and the salaries of the crew...), are totally unaware of what's going on. I would feel very uncomfortable as a passenger in such a dive.

    Just for the record: I have flown myself 400+ steep approaches into London City and believe me, that is not the picture you want to see, not even on a steep approach. I had a look at the approach plates of GCXO Tenerife-North (looking for a justification). There is absolutely no reason at all to fly the aircraft like that. Some details: RWY 30 threshold = 2002 ft, 3400 m long, standard 3° glide slope, approach over the sea, go around over the sea, high terrain SW and NE of the airport: nothing special!

    I have absolutely no problems with pilots exploring the capabilities of their aircraft, but there are limits. Let there be no doubt about it: this approach should have ended in a go around. I must say that I don't like your remark on the "so-called pilots", that they are not good enough to go to Tenerife-North.

    And then, I was struck by disbelief when I saw the star on the captain's shoulder. Is this the Chief Pilot of Binter? Not a good example to his fellow pilots I would say. You praise the man with "outstanding skills". There is no skill involved in planting an aircraft mid runway after a miserable approach and scaring the passengers to death! I use different criteria to nominate one for being skillfull. I will think twice before booking a flight on that airline...



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  3. #23
    мать Россия Longreach747's Avatar
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    great photos but you can stick that approach right up your clacker!


    next trips
    USA/DXB August.

  4. #24
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    Have look at the picture when the aircraft is diving through 500 ft above the runway: http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=173307. (altimeter reads 2500ft and runway elevation = 2002ft). The VSI (= Vertical Speed Indicator) is showing -3200 ft/min !!!! The GPWS must have been yelling his longs out. Did anybody say something about a safe and easy landing?

    Do you know that by simply pulling out of this dive, the G-load can be sufficient to stall the aircraft? (the G-load creates a higher relative weight and therefore stalling speed is going up aswell).


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  5. #25
    Senior Member gbasco's Avatar
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    When we were right about 400-500 feet the captain started to pull up, no G forces felt, and landed softly. The pics look a lot more "dramatic" that which really happened. I wish I had tapped it so you could all see how nicely it was done. Remember this is an ATR-72, not a B747, it handles a lot better. It might not be a normal approach, but it is not the uncommon with Binter Canarias. If you take a look at one of my first pics http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=31227 it was about the same. As you can see the plane was already levelling off, and my sources have told me it was not the same pilot. When I saw it coming I thought it was going to crash, but when it was around 400-500 feet above the runway, it levelled, and nicely stalled on the runway. Besides, the normal approach into runway 30 is very bumpy because of the winds, this one was very smooth. I have flown a lot in Binter as a normal PAX in the back, I have been on approaches like this one and did not feel any G forces. A lot of people I know who fly in Binter, have seen the pic and said they done the same approaches and thought of them a lot better the normal ones, just because of the turbulence normally of arriving to TFN or LPA.I would think landing at the old HK airport would be a lot more difficult and dangerous than this landing.

    Cheers

    Gabe


  6. #26
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    Let us compare it with a London City approach. Glideslope is 5.9° or 9.8% which is roughly a "double" glideslope. I remember that we flew the approach at a speed of around 120 kts, depending on the weight. To stay on the glideslope we needed a rate of descent of 1200 ft/min (Rule of thumb: 10 times the groundspeed gives you the required rate of descent at London City) Torque is set around 15% while 12% torque is zero-drag setting for the props (Fokker 50). The Decision Height (DH) for EGLC is 400 ft above ground level. These minima are also twice the value of a normal 200 ft minima for a standard 3° ILS. PAPI is set on an angle of 6°.
    See 2 pictures of aircraft on the steep approach at EGLC: http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=126171
    http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=1321 Another picture, this time from the cockpit during approach on rwy 28 at EGLC (sorry, it's a picture of the other site) : http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=346286 Note the difference between this one and the Binter approach. You can actually see things in front of the runway. The runway is only 1100m long and 30m wide, surrounded by water. That's more or less an aircraft carrier.


    Now look at the speed and rate of descent seen on your picture ( http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=173307 ) when the aircraft passes through 500ft: 125 kts and rate of descent of 3200 ft/min. Easy calculation learns you that at that very moment they are on a profile of a triple London City approach or 6 time the values of a normal approach!

    Do you now understand my reasoning why I consider the Binter-dive as very dangerous? What they are trying to pull off is testpilot stuff with pax on board.

    greetz

  7. #27
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    As others have said, this is either "test pilot stuff" or "empty flying motivator" with pax onboard. The now popular concept of flying stabilized approaches applies in all cases. Most companies I know of define a stabilized approach as being in a position where minimal heading, pitch and power changes are necessary to maintain a flightpath that will lead to a safe landing. In my company where we fly steep approaches on a daily basis with 7.5 degree glideslopes on 799m runways, our aim is to be stabililized at 1000' with a maximum of 1500' pr. min rate of descent. For non STOL approaches max 1000' rate of descent. When flying steep approaches defined under JAR OPS as glide more than 4.5 degrees, you are required to have either visual guidance or instrument glideslope guidance. As far as I can calculate (keeping in mind that aviation is NOT an exact science ) the ATR in these pictures is doing about a 17 degree glide!!! (Based on 110 knots and VS 3300' pr min) A glide like this is way out the certification limits of most a/c including this one I think, so I have to agree that this is not the safest way to operate. It leads my mind on the buffalo that crashed at Farnborough some years back?

    But great pictures, I give you that and had it been an empty flight - cool!

    Rgrds
    "Call for taxi"

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