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  • #31
    What is nuts to me is how a pair of seasoned pilots can execute an instrument approach in these conditions while paying so little attention to what is going on and failing to monitor instruments correctly and maintain situational awareness. When the weather reads like that you know in advance you need to be EXTRA careful and operate with an extremely high level of awareness.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      From a statement from ACT Airlines:

      "Captain has a total of 10,821 flight hours of which 833 hours are on B744. Our First Officer has a total of 5910 flight hours of which 1771 hours are on B744. "

      And how many go-arounds on the B747? That's not much on-type experience, and it leads me to speculate...
      He became responsible for that B744 flight as a captain, with an experience of 833 flight hours in a B744 cockpit?

      Hm. I don't know how the word 'experience' is handled by a Turkish airline like 9T.

      But if you ask me, I don't like to be responsible for a B744 flight as a captain with less than 1000 flight hours in a B744 cockpit! That means, I'd always like to sit next to a pilot who has 6,000 or more flight hours in a B744, if I had less than 1,000. And in such a case, the ranking is clear: F/O with 833 hours, and Captain with more than 1,000 in a B744...

      Imho, it's a perfect thing that always two pilots are on board. And the pilot with more flight hours on the type should be responsible for the flight. And btw, regardless of age!
      The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
      The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
      And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
      This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
        What is nuts to me is how a pair of seasoned pilots can execute an instrument approach in these conditions while paying so little attention to what is going on and failing to monitor instruments correctly and maintain situational awareness. When the weather reads like that you know in advance you need to be EXTRA careful and operate with an extremely high level of awareness.
        Hi Leftseat.

        I rather agree with Evan. Less than 3,000 flight hours (833 + 1771) in a B744 cockpit, if you count the B744 experience of all pilots in the cockpit, that's not much, to stay polite.

        Imho, the person on board who is responsible for the aircraft and all humans (and cargo) in it, should not be called a 'captain' with less than 1000 flight hours on e.g. a B744.

        I know A320 flights, where the captain has 6,000 hours of experience in an A320 cockpit.

        You don't gain the captain's rank for nothing, at least not in Germany.
        The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
        The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
        And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
        This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
          What is nuts to me is how a pair of seasoned pilots can execute an instrument approach in these conditions while paying so little attention to what is going on and failing to monitor instruments correctly and maintain situational awareness. When the weather reads like that you know in advance you need to be EXTRA careful and operate with an extremely high level of awareness.
          Apparently these guys earned a lot of their time as fighter pilots. And who knows what else. I wonder if this is another case of being new to a modern autoflight sysytem and over-estimating the automation, like that crash involving a former 737-100 crew with clockwork autopilot experience transitioning to a 737-200 Advanced with digital flight control, where they thought it could just magically fly out of windshear on its own...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            Naw, his mind is so full of procedures and acronyms, he sometimes gets basic things confused...heck, I see CATII and the T almost passes for an I if you read it quickly...but hey, I loves me some acronyms!

            And I think really good CRM includes stuff like the PF saying "one dot high, correcting" or the unwritten gross fundamental that if you aren't established and kinda stable at the marker you simply go around then. But what do I know, maybe the procedure is different on a 747-800 than a -200.
            Yes. If you n me were able to sit in a 747-200 cockpit today, and tomorrow in a 747-800 cockpit, you'd probably say that one of these cockpits was not a 747.

            As far as I know, and I am only able to compare the original 742 to the 744 cockpit, the -200 did not provide fmc, thus, at least one or two of the three crew members in the cockpit of a 747-200 had to be a navigator, i.e. a person who - without the use of satellites - knows where the aircraft is, in every second of the flight.

            Old school. The step from 747-400 to 747-800 is nothing, compared to the 742. Chief engineer Sutter could've told us more detail. But after all that I've heard, the 748 fmc hasn't changed that much compared to the B744.

            I don't think that computers can replace the communication between the two pilots in the cockpit!
            The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
            This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post

              As far as I know, and I am only able to compare the original 742 to the 744 cockpit, the -200 did not provide fmc, thus, at least one or two of the three crew members in the cockpit of a 747-200 had to be a navigator, i.e. a person who - without the use of satellites - knows where the aircraft is, in every second of the flight.
              That's not entirely accurate, most -200s remaining in service have long been refitted with FMCs, some even refitted with glass PFDs and HSIs. In some cases that was out of sheer necessity, the old parts being NLA.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                That's not entirely accurate, most -200s remaining in service have long been refitted with FMCs, some even refitted with glass PFDs and HSIs. In some cases that was out of sheer necessity, the old parts being NLA.
                Hm. I think the important word is 'remaining in service'. Do we talk about the upgrade which the new President has experienced a few weeks ago, from 757 to 747?

                I've never seen a VC-25 cockpit, not even photographed. The only thing that I know is, Barack Obama has been always very happy when he was on board his 747. And imho this is one of the very few (strongly modified) 747-200s that are still in service.

                I don't have to tell you how we distinguish the different years of construction:
                -200 >> "antennas" at the wingtips.
                -300 oha. ?
                -400 >> with winglets.
                -800 >> without winglets.

                I'd bet that when Obama flew across the pond last time, his aircraft had 'antennas' at the wingtips. But this photo doesn't contain a view of the cockpit. My hope is, that Obama was in the air with a cockpit that's at least as modern as in a B744, so, glass PFDs, glass NDs, glass upper EICAS, et cetera et cetera...
                Obama's had deserved it.
                Here is the photo (with 'antennas'):
                Obama en route beyond the pond.

                PS: My favourite airline left the 747-200 club in 2004, after 33 years. And it joined the 747-400 club in 1989. So, what can we say. If you find pilots who enjoy to fly an a/c type, and if you find (updated) spare parts, you don't have to leave the club.
                Last edited by LH-B744; 2017-02-15, 00:29. Reason: My favourite airline...
                The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                  He became responsible for that B744 flight as a captain, with an experience of 833 flight hours in a B744 cockpit?

                  Hm. I don't know how the word 'experience' is handled by a Turkish airline like 9T.

                  But if you ask me, I don't like to be responsible for a B744 flight as a captain with less than 1000 flight hours in a B744 cockpit! That means, I'd always like to sit next to a pilot who has 6,000 or more flight hours in a B744, if I had less than 1,000. And in such a case, the ranking is clear: F/O with 833 hours, and Captain with more than 1,000 in a B744...
                  How many hours on type do you think that ALL the 787 captian have now? Or all the 744 captains one year after first revenue flight? Or how many hours in 747s in general (regardless of the 100, 200, SP, 300, 400, or 8 suffix), or in any widebody for the matter, do you think all the 747-100 captains had on type one year after the 747-100 first revenue flight?

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    How many hours on type do you think that ALL the 787 captian have now? Or all the 744 captains one year after first revenue flight? Or how many hours in 747s in general (regardless of the 100, 200, SP, 300, 400, or 8 suffix), or in any widebody for the matter, do you think all the 747-100 captains had on type one year after the 747-100 first revenue flight?
                    Indeed, you cite some logic issues with LSD's marginal Englais and it's never wise to get too specific when posting around Gabriel.

                    That being said...there sometimes seems to be some eye-rolling shortcomings in how experience is handled...In a perfect world, the left seater has a bunch of hours (and hopefully a nice bit in-type). The right seater can be "the apprentice"...

                    Ironingly, perhaps the lowly Beech 1900-no-autopilot should be the zillion hour captain, with less experienced guys operating Evan's totally computerized, newest luxury liner?

                    And of course, you have that whole human imperfection thing where sometimes, the less experienced guy is better with his airmanship and procedures than the veteran.
                    Les rčgles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      How many hours on type do you think that ALL the 787 captian have now? Or all the 744 captains one year after first revenue flight? Or how many hours in 747s in general (regardless of the 100, 200, SP, 300, 400, or 8 suffix), or in any widebody for the matter, do you think all the 747-100 captains had on type one year after the 747-100 first revenue flight?
                      Is this a discussion on a professional base? Well, let's do the 747 discussion, on a semipro base. You n me know good 747 destinations. So let's take the best example that you n me know.
                      Flight LH 510 --- departure 2205 local --- arrival in Buenos Aires xxxx local (you know that better than me, semipro and professional pilots don't measure the local time...) --- time in the air 13 hours and 50 minutes.

                      During such a night flight, a PF is on duty for .. let's say 3 hours without a break. That means, on such super long haul flights (5,000 nmi and more), there are at least three 747 pilots on board.
                      Pilot 1 -- 0-3 hrs,
                      Pilot 2 -- 4-6 hrs,
                      Pilot 3 -- 7-9 hrs,
                      Pilot 1 -- 10-12 hrs,
                      Pilot 2 -- 13-15 hrs,

                      If that were a real LH plan, how many hours is Pilot 1 in duty on the way to Argentina? 6 hours. But let's assume that he does not have a nine-to five job, with 16 hours for his private leisure, between five and nine!
                      Somebody has to fly the 747 back to Germany. Let's assume how that could work:
                      Pilot 3 -- 16-18 hrs,
                      Pilot 1 -- 19-21 hrs,
                      Pilot 2 --

                      During 30 hours, such a pilot is theoretically 12 hours on duty. But when he's not on duty, that does not mean that he's at home, not by far. So, I don't like to compare a PF with a 'normal job' in an office!

                      But for simplicity...
                      Let's assume 40 hours on duty in one week, for a normal nine to five job. 22 work days in a month, 176 hours on duty in a month.
                      Thus, you n me theoretically need ... 5 months to gain 880 flight hours (5 x 176).

                      So, the captain who we talk about here knows "his" 747-400 for less than five months?!

                      PS: One thing is right, when the 747 was invented by Chief Engineer Joe Sutter in 1969, then nobody on Earth was able to have flown the 747 for 800 flight hours or more. But Sutters newest invention, the 747-800, was inaugurated in 2011.
                      So, you can call me a bad calculator, but in 4 years even a totally new pilot on the 747-800 gathers, let's say 500 per year, thus,

                      2000 flight hours, and we discuss about a B744 flight captain, not about a F/O or Second Officer!
                      The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                      The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                      And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                      This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Gabriel, you know that this is not an offense. We know each other too long. But in Germany, the term "Flugkapitän", in English "flight captain" is not only the word for the human with the four stripes on each shoulder in the cockpit.

                        I hope we agree when I say that an aviation beginner, i.e. some one who's never sat in a jet cockpit, does not begin with a B744.

                        Thus, for me at least, a flight captain in a B744 is more than a flight captain in ... let's say a CR9. A flight captain has enough experience, in years and in flight hours, to show a pilot with zero flight hours on that type how that a/c type is flown. Les Abend is only an example.
                        So, in my naive imagination, a B744 Flight Captain is some one who is able to explain a 747-400 to, let's say, a CR9 flight captain.

                        747-400 flight instructor might be a synonym. And in my humble opinion, you can't explain a 747-400 to someone else after only five months or less than 900 flight hours in the cockpit of a B744.

                        PS: Would you trust a driving instructor who is only 16 years old? A little bit exaggerated, but I'd bet, you wouldn't. And I know a little bit of what you do.
                        In Germany, there exists the word "Kapitän der Landstraße", which again is not used for somebody who gained his drivers license 5, 8 or 9 months ago...
                        Last edited by LH-B744; 2017-02-15, 04:52. Reason: Kapitän.
                        The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                        The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                        And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                        This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          You don't know what you are talking about.

                          40 flight hours per week for a long-haul flight? So let's re-do the math. You take the LH flight to Buenos Aires Monday night. That's a 12 / 13 hours flight. Half of that + 1 hour will be flight time for each of the 2 full crews. That's less than your 8 hours, but just for the sake of it let's take 8 hours. So you arrive Tuesday morning. Do you really think that the same crews will fly the Tuesday night flight back to Munich? No! They will fly the Wednesday night flight (another 8 hours) and will arrive to Munich Thursday morning, and then take the Friday night to Buenos Aires (another 8 hours) arriving Saturday morning, and Sunday will be their day off so they will take the Monday night flight back to Munich and the cycle repeats (only that now in the opposite direction). This is simplified, since a crew will not typically fly the same legs always, but just to give an idea, we had 3 x 8 hours flight time per week. The year has 52 weeks, but remove 6 weeks for vacation and training, and you are left with 46 weeks, and 46 x 8 = 368 hours per year. Let's say 1000 hours every 3 years to round it off, so it takes like 30 years to accumulate 10K hours. There is a good reason why there are no young captains with 10K hours.

                          Now, I don't know if you noted that this captain had 800 hours in the 744 but 10K hours total, we don;t know how many of them perhaps in the 743 or in another widebody.

                          Normally, when you are a first officer, there are 2 paths of growth: Captain in your type or FO in the next type in the ladder. But when you are already a captain in a type, the normal growth path is captain in the next type. The most important quality of a captain (vs an FO) is not his flight skills, but his judgement, leadership, and management of the flight as a whole (including the resources).

                          And, don't forget, terrible accidents have happened under the watch of very experienced pilots. Do I need to mention Tenerife?

                          And again, how do airlines do when they start using a new type in their fleet? (even if the type itself is not so new)

                          I think I would feel more comfortable with a very good and experienced 10000 hours captain (and I mean very good at that of being captain), perhaps with not so many hours in the type, than with a captain that has all his 1200 hours total time in the single type where he is captain.

                          And, as 3we would say. Do you think that a 744 is complicated? Try a King Air with no FMS, not autothrust, no autopilot, no EICAS, no electronic attitude indicator, no moving map, flying NDB (ADF) approaches in marginal IMC with no FO either.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            This might be the language barrier.

                            I never said that the LH 510 flight only takes place during 40 flight hours per week. And sometimes you, as the older man (which I respect), have to believe me. We can discuss if you or me have the longer experience with LH-B747, but I don't think that this is a topic that we should argue about. If you were TeeVee or somebody as old as my father, I'd say, ok, which was the very first LH-B 747 experience in your life?!

                            But between us there are only 7 years, or less, that's ridiculous.

                            LH 510 is a flight which takes place today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, in a short version, this is a flight which takes place with freq 1234567 !

                            We have perceived that Buenos Aires, for simplicity, is a 14 hour flight, in a 747. Plus the return flight to Germany are 28 hours, without the time that a 747 needs to fuel. That means, that more than 1 LH longhaul jet in 24 hours is enroute. On this Wednesday, the Yankee November is in the schedule.

                            I don't know if you know the difference between a Baron 58 and a Boeing 747-800. For the Baron 58, you need at least 1 pilot... .. .... .........................

                            40 flight hours in one week was a rough guess by me, for 1 pilot, in a 747-800. But neither the FAA nor Lufthansa allows the take off in a 747-800 with only one pilot. But this is another topic. If we discuss the workload for a complete cockpit crew for the LH 510 flight on this wednesday, then you'll have to take
                            13 hours 50 minutes for all three pilots on board, because time on board is not time for your personal leisure...

                            But as I mentioned in my #41, I know a little bit of what you do every day, and I respect you.

                            But you're completely wrong if you assume that it takes 30 years in a B744 cockpit to gain 10000 flight hours. You don't know who Les Abend is, do you? I respect him as a flight captain since I am a Jetphotos member. And I don't think that he needed 60 years to achieve his more than 18,000 flight hours. At least he doesn't seem like if he were twice as old as you, in this photo!
                            Les Abend at work.

                            I could ask Les, which would be the average of flight hours per year for a good flight captain in a jet aircraft. He started to be a pilot when he was 17 years old. Thus, if you were right with your theory, then on the photograph which I gave you he must have been... older than 70. Come on, that's one of your worst jokes!

                            Gabriel. 500 flight hours in 1 year is not much, for a professional passenger jet pilot. Trust me. Or we ask Les Abend. 2 years for 1000 flight hours, or 18 years for 9000 flight hours.

                            Should we ask Les?

                            PS: And If you like, we can discuss Los Rodeos. If you open that topic (again). But you were a little school boy back then, so, where is the sense. Neither my favourite airline nor your favourite airline (?!) was involved, March 27 1977. Heavy fog at Los Rodeos (visibility, in nautical miles?), almost 40 years before, plus only 1 runway which was completely overloaded with a/c who originally should arrive at Gran Canaria...
                            Los Rodeos today is an airport that is so small (less than 4.5 million passengers per year) that we wouldn't discuss it if that wasn't the only place since the beginning of aviation where a PanAM 747-100 'Clipper Victor' and a KLM 747-200 collided. And yes, van Zanten was the KLM flight captain, and he died at the age of 50, during the collision at Los Rodeos, with 1545 flight hours in a 747 cockpit...

                            That's not in contrast to what I try to say since this topic was started. With more than 1000 flight hours in a 747 cockpit, you can become a captain and a flight instructor for that a/c type. Nevertheless, van Zanten died before he became 51 years old.

                            If you wanted to quote an old German saying, 'Alter schützt vor Torheit nicht.', I am with you. In Spanish? Hm. The internet gives us the English version: "There's no fool like an old fool.", end of the quotation.

                            More? There is another one, in German. Es gibt riskant fliegende Piloten. Und es gibt alte Piloten.

                            I didn't know until today, that there is at least one USAF Colonel who even survives Chief Engineer Joe Sutter... Salute!
                            Last edited by LH-B744; 2017-02-15, 08:05. Reason: Los Rodeos? Yes. Pilots have survived that.
                            The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                            This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              And, as 3we would say. Do you think that a 744 is complicated? Try a King Air with no FMS, not autothrust, no autopilot, no EICAS, no electronic attitude indicator, no moving map, flying NDB (ADF) approaches in marginal IMC with no FO either.
                              Gabriel, I know I don't have to remind you that the issue in crashes like this is not technical competence, it is complacency. You can have 1000 non-precision approaches on a King Air, but after flying 10 autolands in a 747 you might become a bit complacent. You might start to divert your concentration to things other than flying the plane. You might think "this thing flies itself!".

                              But then, we also have a pilot monitoring, and a culture that stresses CRM and devout procedure during critical phases of flight, especially on final. That doesn't come from 10,000 flight hours, it comes from a few dozen proper training hours, an absence of cockpit gradient, some quality reading time and a checkride or two.

                              It isn't the high hours that baffle me here. It is how pilots like this are allowed even one hour in command of a commercial aircraft.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                ...how pilots like this are allowed even one hour in command of a commercial aircraft...
                                Most likely, they demonstrated proper procedures at the necessary skill level in a recent test..along with sometimes, repeatedly demonstrating the proper procedures at the necessary skill level in periodic tests repeated several times over several years too.
                                Les rčgles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                                Comment

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