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Thread: Cargo airplane collapsed in Kyrgyzstan

  1. #41
    Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Gabriel, you know that this is not an offense. We know each other too long. But in Germany, the term "Flugkapitän", in English "flight captain" is not only the word for the human with the four stripes on each shoulder in the cockpit.

    I hope we agree when I say that an aviation beginner, i.e. some one who's never sat in a jet cockpit, does not begin with a B744.

    Thus, for me at least, a flight captain in a B744 is more than a flight captain in ... let's say a CR9. A flight captain has enough experience, in years and in flight hours, to show a pilot with zero flight hours on that type how that a/c type is flown. Les Abend is only an example.
    So, in my naive imagination, a B744 Flight Captain is some one who is able to explain a 747-400 to, let's say, a CR9 flight captain.

    747-400 flight instructor might be a synonym. And in my humble opinion, you can't explain a 747-400 to someone else after only five months or less than 900 flight hours in the cockpit of a B744.

    PS: Would you trust a driving instructor who is only 16 years old? A little bit exaggerated, but I'd bet, you wouldn't. And I know a little bit of what you do.
    In Germany, there exists the word "Kapitän der Landstraße", which again is not used for somebody who gained his drivers license 5, 8 or 9 months ago...
    Last edited by LH-B744; 02-15-2017 at 04:52 AM. Reason: Kapitän.
    747 as a guarantee for democracy? That's only a theory. But it is a friendly theory, sold since 1969. Good.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    You don't know what you are talking about.

    40 flight hours per week for a long-haul flight? So let's re-do the math. You take the LH flight to Buenos Aires Monday night. That's a 12 / 13 hours flight. Half of that + 1 hour will be flight time for each of the 2 full crews. That's less than your 8 hours, but just for the sake of it let's take 8 hours. So you arrive Tuesday morning. Do you really think that the same crews will fly the Tuesday night flight back to Munich? No! They will fly the Wednesday night flight (another 8 hours) and will arrive to Munich Thursday morning, and then take the Friday night to Buenos Aires (another 8 hours) arriving Saturday morning, and Sunday will be their day off so they will take the Monday night flight back to Munich and the cycle repeats (only that now in the opposite direction). This is simplified, since a crew will not typically fly the same legs always, but just to give an idea, we had 3 x 8 hours flight time per week. The year has 52 weeks, but remove 6 weeks for vacation and training, and you are left with 46 weeks, and 46 x 8 = 368 hours per year. Let's say 1000 hours every 3 years to round it off, so it takes like 30 years to accumulate 10K hours. There is a good reason why there are no young captains with 10K hours.

    Now, I don't know if you noted that this captain had 800 hours in the 744 but 10K hours total, we don;t know how many of them perhaps in the 743 or in another widebody.

    Normally, when you are a first officer, there are 2 paths of growth: Captain in your type or FO in the next type in the ladder. But when you are already a captain in a type, the normal growth path is captain in the next type. The most important quality of a captain (vs an FO) is not his flight skills, but his judgement, leadership, and management of the flight as a whole (including the resources).

    And, don't forget, terrible accidents have happened under the watch of very experienced pilots. Do I need to mention Tenerife?

    And again, how do airlines do when they start using a new type in their fleet? (even if the type itself is not so new)

    I think I would feel more comfortable with a very good and experienced 10000 hours captain (and I mean very good at that of being captain), perhaps with not so many hours in the type, than with a captain that has all his 1200 hours total time in the single type where he is captain.

    And, as 3we would say. Do you think that a 744 is complicated? Try a King Air with no FMS, not autothrust, no autopilot, no EICAS, no electronic attitude indicator, no moving map, flying NDB (ADF) approaches in marginal IMC with no FO either.

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  3. #43
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    This might be the language barrier.

    I never said that the LH 510 flight only takes place during 40 flight hours per week. And sometimes you, as the older man (which I respect), have to believe me. We can discuss if you or me have the longer experience with LH-B747, but I don't think that this is a topic that we should argue about. If you were TeeVee or somebody as old as my father, I'd say, ok, which was the very first LH-B 747 experience in your life?!

    But between us there are only 7 years, or less, that's ridiculous.

    LH 510 is a flight which takes place today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, in a short version, this is a flight which takes place with freq 1234567 !

    We have perceived that Buenos Aires, for simplicity, is a 14 hour flight, in a 747. Plus the return flight to Germany are 28 hours, without the time that a 747 needs to fuel. That means, that more than 1 LH longhaul jet in 24 hours is enroute. On this Wednesday, the Yankee November is in the schedule.

    I don't know if you know the difference between a Baron 58 and a Boeing 747-800. For the Baron 58, you need at least 1 pilot... .. .... .........................

    40 flight hours in one week was a rough guess by me, for 1 pilot, in a 747-800. But neither the FAA nor Lufthansa allows the take off in a 747-800 with only one pilot. But this is another topic. If we discuss the workload for a complete cockpit crew for the LH 510 flight on this wednesday, then you'll have to take
    13 hours 50 minutes for all three pilots on board, because time on board is not time for your personal leisure...

    But as I mentioned in my #41, I know a little bit of what you do every day, and I respect you.

    But you're completely wrong if you assume that it takes 30 years in a B744 cockpit to gain 10000 flight hours. You don't know who Les Abend is, do you? I respect him as a flight captain since I am a Jetphotos member. And I don't think that he needed 60 years to achieve his more than 18,000 flight hours. At least he doesn't seem like if he were twice as old as you, in this photo!
    Les Abend at work.

    I could ask Les, which would be the average of flight hours per year for a good flight captain in a jet aircraft. He started to be a pilot when he was 17 years old. Thus, if you were right with your theory, then on the photograph which I gave you he must have been... older than 70. Come on, that's one of your worst jokes!

    Gabriel. 500 flight hours in 1 year is not much, for a professional passenger jet pilot. Trust me. Or we ask Les Abend. 2 years for 1000 flight hours, or 18 years for 9000 flight hours.

    Should we ask Les?

    PS: And If you like, we can discuss Los Rodeos. If you open that topic (again). But you were a little school boy back then, so, where is the sense. Neither my favourite airline nor your favourite airline (?!) was involved, March 27 1977. Heavy fog at Los Rodeos (visibility, in nautical miles?), almost 40 years before, plus only 1 runway which was completely overloaded with a/c who originally should arrive at Gran Canaria...
    Los Rodeos today is an airport that is so small (less than 4.5 million passengers per year) that we wouldn't discuss it if that wasn't the only place since the beginning of aviation where a PanAM 747-100 'Clipper Victor' and a KLM 747-200 collided. And yes, van Zanten was the KLM flight captain, and he died at the age of 50, during the collision at Los Rodeos, with 1545 flight hours in a 747 cockpit...

    That's not in contrast to what I try to say since this topic was started. With more than 1000 flight hours in a 747 cockpit, you can become a captain and a flight instructor for that a/c type. Nevertheless, van Zanten died before he became 51 years old.

    If you wanted to quote an old German saying, 'Alter schützt vor Torheit nicht.', I am with you. In Spanish? Hm. The internet gives us the English version: "There's no fool like an old fool.", end of the quotation.

    More? There is another one, in German. Es gibt riskant fliegende Piloten. Und es gibt alte Piloten.

    I didn't know until today, that there is at least one USAF Colonel who even survives Chief Engineer Joe Sutter... Salute!
    Last edited by LH-B744; 02-15-2017 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Los Rodeos? Yes. Pilots have survived that.
    747 as a guarantee for democracy? That's only a theory. But it is a friendly theory, sold since 1969. Good.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    And, as 3we would say. Do you think that a 744 is complicated? Try a King Air with no FMS, not autothrust, no autopilot, no EICAS, no electronic attitude indicator, no moving map, flying NDB (ADF) approaches in marginal IMC with no FO either.
    Gabriel, I know I don't have to remind you that the issue in crashes like this is not technical competence, it is complacency. You can have 1000 non-precision approaches on a King Air, but after flying 10 autolands in a 747 you might become a bit complacent. You might start to divert your concentration to things other than flying the plane. You might think "this thing flies itself!".

    But then, we also have a pilot monitoring, and a culture that stresses CRM and devout procedure during critical phases of flight, especially on final. That doesn't come from 10,000 flight hours, it comes from a few dozen proper training hours, an absence of cockpit gradient, some quality reading time and a checkride or two.

    It isn't the high hours that baffle me here. It is how pilots like this are allowed even one hour in command of a commercial aircraft.

  5. #45
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    ...how pilots like this are allowed even one hour in command of a commercial aircraft...
    Most likely, they demonstrated proper procedures at the necessary skill level in a recent test..along with sometimes, repeatedly demonstrating the proper procedures at the necessary skill level in periodic tests repeated several times over several years too.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Les Abend has 31 years of flying experience. Not all of them in long-haul operations. (in commuter, domestic and regional, it is easier to accumulate more hours).
    So 18000/31 = 580 per year average. Probably more than that when he was flying DC-9s and less in the 767/777.

    For flight experience (like when you say "how can it be a 744 captain with only 800 hours in the type?"), flight hours are counted only when an engine is up and running and you are acting as PIC or FO. Flight planning, checking weather, weight and balance, pre-flight, post-flight don't count. Also, the rest hours that you are in the plane (taking turns with other pilots) are not flight hours. Training hours don't count except the time that you are actually flying a sim. Even less do count off-duty hours, like commuting between hotels and airports, time spent in hotels away from home, etc.

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  7. #47
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    For flight experience (like when you say "how can it be a 744 captain with only 800 hours in the type?"), flight hours are counted only when an engine is up and running and you are acting as PIC or FO. Flight planning, checking weather, weight and balance, pre-flight, post-flight don't count. Also, the rest hours that you are in the plane (taking turns with other pilots) are not flight hours. Training hours don't count except the time that you are actually flying a sim. Even less do count off-duty hours, like commuting between hotels and airports, time spent in hotels away from home, etc.
    What about during final when you are sitting in the cockpit CPT or F/O seats are not paying attention to the instruments? Do those hours count as flying hours?

  8. #48
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    What about during final when you are sitting in the cockpit CPT or F/O seats are not paying attention to the instruments? Do those hours count as flying hours?
    When HAL is flying you are logging important time and approach currency...whether you monitor instruments or movies on your I-Pad. Some communication with ATC may be required.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post

    And, don't forget, terrible accidents have happened under the watch of very experienced pilots. Do I need to mention Tenerife?
    Probably the best point raised here. Unfortunately I've come to dislike Sully because half of his talking points are "I have a lot of experience and that's why I was able to pull off the 1549" and "pilots should have more experience before they're allowed to fly because I am proof that you need hours to excel in bad situations".

    Correlation does not imply causation. Causation does not imply correlation.

    Van Zanten had 11700 total hours / 1545 747 hours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    Hm. I think the important word is 'remaining in service'. Do we talk about the upgrade which the new President has experienced a few weeks ago, from 757 to 747?

    I've never seen a VC-25 cockpit, not even photographed. The only thing that I know is, Barack Obama has been always very happy when he was on board his 747. And imho this is one of the very few (strongly modified) 747-200s that are still in service.

    I'd bet that when Obama flew across the pond last time, his aircraft had 'antennas' at the wingtips. But this photo doesn't contain a view of the cockpit. My hope is, that Obama was in the air with a cockpit that's at least as modern as in a B744, so, glass PFDs, glass NDs, glass upper EICAS, et cetera et cetera...
    VC-25 has the 744 digital cockpit, as well as newer CF6s (same as the 744 and later build 743s).
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  11. #51
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe Garcia View Post
    Probably the best point raised here. Unfortunately I've come to dislike Sully because half of his talking points are "I have a lot of experience and that's why I was able to pull off the 1549" and "pilots should have more experience before they're allowed to fly because I am proof that you need hours to excel in bad situations".
    So I guess that you gain all that experience by not flying until you have all that experience.

    Correlation does not imply causation. Causation does not imply correlation.
    Actually, correlation does not prove causation, but causation causes correlation. There is no causation without correlation.

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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe Garcia View Post
    VC-25 has the 744 digital cockpit, as well as newer CF6s (same as the 744 and later build 743s).
    My understanding is that it has more of a -300 cockpit as well.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe Garcia View Post
    Probably the best point raised here. Unfortunately I've come to dislike Sully because half of his talking points are "I have a lot of experience and that's why I was able to pull off the 1549" and "pilots should have more experience before they're allowed to fly because I am proof that you need hours to excel in bad situations".
    I don't think he's quite said that. His point was more general, more along the lines of there is no substitute for experience. I don't recall him making himself some sort of a standard to aspire to.

  14. #54
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    I don't think he's quite said that. His point was more general, more along the lines of there is no substitute for experience. I don't recall him making himself some sort of a standard to aspire to.
    The best experience that Sully used there was regarding decision making and gliders. I don't think that time in type was a strong factor.

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  15. #55
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    When HAL is flying you are logging important time and approach currency...whether you monitor instruments or movies on your I-Pad. Some communication with ATC may be required.
    The point i'm trying to make is that 10,000 hours of bad habit piloting experience (in which you've always gotten away with it because 99.9999% of the time those fatal contributing factors aren't present) is worse than 100 hours of bad habit experience. The more flight hours a pilot with poor airmanship or CRM discipline has, the more confident the pilot is in his complacency, the more ingrained those bad habits become, the greater the risk.

    I think hours mean something up to about 1000-1500 hours on type. I want the PIC to have that if possible. But beyond that, total hours are a poor way of judging how reliable a pilot is.

    Hours of training is what matters. And the quality of those hours.

  16. #56
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    I read the German's posts, and just have to laugh. And here I am right down the street from him in Leipzig. Maybe we should get together tomorrow and have a beer?

  17. #57
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I read the German's posts, and just have to laugh. And here I am right down the street from him in Leipzig. Maybe we should get together tomorrow and have a beer?
    BB, how many flight hours do you log in an average year?

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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    BB, how many flight hours do you log in an average year?
    About 600 - 700 Remember maximum for Part 121 is 1000

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    His testimony before Congress, regarding the 1500 hour minimum.
    http://www.sullysullenberger.com/my-...-and-security/

    He didn't directly praise himself, but he did praise his copilot. However, mentioned at the beginning about his hours and accomplishments.
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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    About 600 - 700
    I have to admit that's more than what I expected. How is your typical trip / week, and how many weeks per year are you off work, if you don't mind sharing?
    Just want to check which one of my assumptions is wrong with you.

    Remember maximum for Part 121 is 1000
    Yup. 8 per day, 30 per week (and one day off), 100 per month, 1000 per year.

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