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Thread: The United debarcle

  1. #841
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    ***it suggests a willingness to be competitive and a perception that customers still choose between operators based on their dedication to human decency***….***On the other hand, I doubt this will happen without some bona fide competition in the industry.***
    As Elaw said, there is no dedication to human decency as lots of stranded Delta passengers are fairly regularly left stranded with Delta sending no rescue planes...

    The trouble is that humans have short memories and marketing departments know this...Sure, there will PROBABLY be an uptick as AA will note devote time to track stormy days at ATL and see who might be stranded and inform their gate agents to look at the competitor's gates to see if there's a good looking group of school kids needing to get somewhere...

    In the meantime, My company's travel webservice will continue to sort by fare, bitch if I go over by $50 and I'll tend South on American, East on Delta and maybe sneak in the occasional WN non-stop (which is a good bit more expensive for 1- being non stop and 2- being Southwest which is often NOT the low-fare specialist.)

    At least the lavatories are bit (though I'm not so sure the RJ ones are better than the lav's that have space devoted to the DCAS processor.)
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Well, an alliance implies shared toilets i.e. a shared responsibility due to an existing voluntary agreement to clean each others toilets when necessary, as a mutually beneficial contingency plan. That is a bit different from just taking a dump and leaving it to someone else to deal with.
    Semantics...

  3. #843
    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    maybe AA should have gifted some water to delta...

    http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c935753&opt=1

  4. #844
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Add Air Canada to the debarcle:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48739532

    Too bad she didn't geek out on aviation forums. She might have known how to start the APU.

  5. #845
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    And the hits just keep on coming: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...-night-flight/
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  6. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    63 and 68yo is "elderly"? And of what of what possible relevance is the length of their marriage to this issue?

  7. #847
    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    is it time for pax to start wearing body cameras? because it is certainly time for flight attendants to get their shit together and get off their high, post-9/11 horses with their ridiculous power to deem someone who merely disagrees as a "threat"

    and for once, i'd like to see a pilot tell a flight attendant to get over it as opposed to blindly following the wish to eject a pax from the plane. grow some balls or ovaries!

    lastly, wtf antiquated, failed, shit system are airlines using that continually allows for duplicate seat assignments?!?!?! oscar should be saying, "yes, we clearly caused this problem to begin with. there is simply no excuse for double assignment of a single seat. we own it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    63 and 68yo is "elderly"?
    Well... at age 50 you can join AARP. At 59-1/2 you can withdraw without penalty from retirement accounts. At age 60 you can benefit from the IRS "Tax Counseling for the Elderly" program. At age 62 you can receive Social Security retirement benefits. So it seems the federal government and others would say "yes".

    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    And of what of what possible relevance is the length of their marriage to this issue?
    None whatsoever but it makes people feel warm and fuzzy inside.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  9. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    wtf antiquated, failed, shit system are airlines using that continually allows for duplicate seat assignments?!?!?!
    This!

    The only possible circumstance I can think of where two people would be assigned to one seat is if one is an infant (which itself is a lousy idea but that's a different thread). If an airline employee can't distinguish whether a person is an infant or not, they shouldn't be handing out boarding passes.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  10. #850
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    63 and 68yo is "elderly"? And of what of what possible relevance is the length of their marriage to this issue?
    Oh, it's relevant...A cancer child, person in a wheel chair, a poor stiff that we identify enjoying their retirement...that garners sympathy. Yeah, sure, we all brought this on ourselves. No one really cares if a pimple-faced 18 YO nerdy DUDE crashes a CAP 172 (I believe I had some pictures of exactly those type of people in a thread on the subject).

    Business dudes/travel warriors are supposed to accept this stoically. We do NOT expect elder (relatively) couples on vacation to do so.

    I'm going with Tee Vee on this one...I know FA's are fed up with EVERYTHING, but when the COMPANY FUBARs, there needs to be a little bit better anger management than yelling at passengers- even passengers who are being somewhat Richard-like in defending their rights for the $ they paid the airline.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  11. #851
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    63 and 68yo is "elderly"? And of what of what possible relevance is the length of their marriage to this issue?
    I guess it shows that they can't be all that hard to get along with. And the journalist owns stock in American, JetBlue and Southwestern Airlines, so down with United!

    There is only one side to this story. The airline fucked up, twice. First, by employing a system that can cause this scenario (probably antiquated, cobbled together by a hodgepodge of legacy systems that can't speak to each other) and secondly, by STILL not doing enough to screen and train cabin crew on the fine art of servicing rather than bullying the paying customers. And probably thirdly by creating a psychologically overwhelming environment while engaged in a race to the bottom, profit maximizing nightmare.

    So whose to blame? De-regulators. It seems to me that a new, robust set of regulations regarding seat-assignment and overbooking, conflict resolution, flight crew selection and training standards and passengers right to appeal is the only thing that will end this nightmare.

  12. #852
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan AND others
    ***First, by employing a system that can cause this scenario (probably antiquated, cobbled together by a hodgepodge of legacy systems that can't speak to each other)***
    Important technical note: The failure mode is very easy to understand and currently not fixable. You see, the airlines did some things to IMPROVE service.

    A boarding pass has become a very non-sacred thing. Print one off at home, use your smart phone, print one at the kiosk, print one from the check in agent, print one at the gate...no shows, cancellations, rebookings, stand bys and so on and so forth- what get's printed on paper can lose it's accuracy in a large number of ways.

    You ready to force the elderly to all have an I-Phone...poor folks?

    Just like we forget to arm spoilers, in the heat of boarding, we might mess up a boarding pass, too. (Again, I suggest some bike riding).

    But again, THAT is not the problem, the problem is the tendency for FA's to go postal...And I guess we SHOULD wait for the FA's side of the story- We don't yet have PROOF that the FA was out of line and the passengers were cool- it COULD have been very much the opposite...Very tough question TeeVee- what IF the pilot recognized that the passengers WERE being total Richards, and the FA's were being cool...Changes the context.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Important technical note: The failure mode is very easy to understand and currently not fixable. You see, the airlines did some things to IMPROVE service.

    A boarding pass has become a very non-sacred thing. Print one off at home, use your smart phone, print one at the kiosk, print one from the check in agent, print one at the gate...no shows, cancellations, rebookings, stand bys and so on and so forth- what get's printed on paper can lose it's accuracy in a large number of ways.
    Uh... yeah... but... all the boarding passes you reference should have the same person's name on them. If Jane Doe shows up at the gate with a boarding pass that says "Jane Doe" you let her onto the plane. If the boarding pass says "Joe Camel" you don't.

    The above would be a personnel issue. The alternative scenario, where Jane Doe shows up with a boarding pass that says "Jane Doe" for seat 24A and Joe Camel shows up with a boarding pass that says "Joe Camel" also for seat 24A, is a computer problem.

    It would be interesting to know which scenario is what happened in this case, but both are the airline's fault.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  14. #854
    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    . .......The alternative scenario, where Jane Doe shows up with a boarding pass that says "Jane Doe" for seat 24A and Joe Camel shows up with a boarding pass that says "Joe Camel" also for seat 24A, is a computer problem......
    No, it’s not a computer problem. Computers react according to human input. Computers do not make mistakes.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  15. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    Computers do not make mistakes.
    Have you ever used Microsoft software?
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  16. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Uh... yeah... but... all the boarding passes you reference should have the same person's name on them. If Jane Doe shows up at the gate with a boarding pass that says "Jane Doe" you let her onto the plane.
    No- it's NOT that simple.

    If they change planes/seating configurations on you between check in and departure.

    If you get canceled, re-routed, and by luck STILL make your connection (maybe IT got delayed)- your seat might have been released- and then they stick someone in it. Your cell phone while you are in ATL is probably accurate, but your paper pass from 5:00 AM in Fargo may not be accurate.

    I can easily see two folks with pieces of paper for the same seat.

    Now, all that being said- the barcode readers (ok the system behind them) OUGHT to be checking all of this and reconciling it.

    If the system were to work properly and your old boarding pass is no longer valid for your seat, as your barcode is scanned, the computer should set off extremely loud warning buzzers, and then the airport police will converge on you, taze you, handcuff you and take you off site to the county prison while the airline looks into the situation. This business of kicking folks off planes MUST STOP!
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  17. #857
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Have you ever used Microsoft software?
    Indeed!

    I love the new feature of "File", "Save", "Crash".
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  18. #858
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    After I got a boarding pass with seat A, I can go to a kiosk and change my seat to B. Now seat A becomes available for someone else but I can still keep that old, now not current, boarding pass with my name and the seat A. However, that one,would be rejected when scanned a the gate for boarding. The only ways that this can happen then is that I scan the board in pass B and then try to seat in A showing the old one, or that I scan A, it gets rejected, but such signal is missed by the gate agent who lets me in.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  19. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Well... at age 50 you can join AARP. At 59-1/2 you can withdraw without penalty from retirement accounts. At age 60 you can benefit from the IRS "Tax Counseling for the Elderly" program. At age 62 you can receive Social Security retirement benefits. So it seems the federal government and others would say "yes".
    I challenge you to walk up to a 63yo woman and call her elderly. Let me know how it goes.

  20. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post

    There is only one side to this story.
    I doubt that. If things went as far as an internal security review, including the airline demanding this 5'3" "elderly" woman explain herself or be banned from the carrier, I have a feeling more went on than we're being told. I can tell you I've seen seasoned citizens become a lot more aggressive than one might expect, particularly where adverse reactions to medications are involved. "We" all remember how quickly UA folded with Dao, they're not folding here, in fact, they seem to be going on the offensive, which tells me they have something on this sweet, little "elderly couple".

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