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Thread: The United debarcle

  1. #821
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    Trouble is, I am specifically barred from sitting in an exit row seat because I need disabled assistance from the terminal to the gate due to my not being able to walk long distances....and that’s the crux of my argument. I cannot walk long distances.....but I CAN stand up, operate an emergency exit and assist others out of the aircraft. I also need a seat belt extender which is another airline indicator for disallowing a passenger from using an exit row seat. Cabin crew don’t listen to reason though, they stick with their hard and fast rules. I can understand not being allowed in the window seat but why do I get barred from the middle and aisle seats ? After all, it’s the window seat passenger who is going to operate the door, not me !
    You can still use front / bulkhead / class change rows.

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  2. #822
    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    You can still use front / bulkhead / class change rows.
    Unless I book months in advance the front rows are the first to be prebooked. Front of economy doesn’t help much as the airlines that I use in Europe all operate Airbusses (BA, Air Malta, Iberia) which have Club (business) Class in front of the first economy row with just a curtain separating them. I have in the past asked if I could just sit in an empty Club Class seat and not participate in any of the extras but this request has always been denied to me.
    My wife and I have taken to prebooking a window seat for me and and aisle seat in the same row for her and this very often results in the middle seat not being allocated which allows some extra legroom.
    Last edited by brianw999; 04-17-2019 at 02:24 PM.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  3. #823
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    Unless I book months in advance the front rows are the first to be prebooked. Front of economy doesn’t help much as the airlines that I use in Europe all operate Airbusses (BA, Air Malta, Iberia) which have Club (business) Class in front of the first economy row with just a curtain separating them. I have in the past asked if I could just sit in an empty Club Class seat and not participate in any of the extras but this request has always been denied to me.
    My wife and I have taken to prebooking a window seat for me and and aisle seat in the same row for her and this very often results in the middle seat not being allocated which allows some extra legroom.
    In my experience, the first row of the Economy class (behind the business class separated with curtains) always has more legroom. But I don't remember when was the last time that I flew in a single-aisle plane in Europe.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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  4. #824
    Member ATLcrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    After all, itÂ’s the window seat passenger who is going to operate the door, not me !
    And if said window passenger was incapacitated secondary to the crash?

  5. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This.

    You see it often, but what does it mean? Technology came around and there was an industrial revolution. We came to form our identities as tools in the post-industrial-age. What is your name? What do you do? There's no going back.
    Industry became more powerful than the ruling government. They abused this power, employing children and creating harsh, dangerous and often inhumane work environments. That is, unfortunately, human nature among humans lacking in moral compunction.
    Government stepped up, that is to say, the people stepped up through their government and said, no, we demand human dignity and safe working conditions. It worked. Industry, reigned in by government, continued to flourish and prosper.
    Industry must be governed. It will not govern itself by any other principal than growth, market share and profits. Industry seeks to oppress us. In order to maintain freedom, we must regulate industry.
    A narrative was born, born of great investment, that the problem was 'big government'. It tries to convince us that the things that attempt to keep the playing field a fair one are detrimental to our lives.
    Certainly, there is ineptitude and bureaucratic nonsense involved, and certainly this snares progress. But it's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of competence. You don't solve the competence problem by scaling down government.
    Certainly, there is some fat that needs to be trimmed, but most of it lies in the defense department. Oh, we need that to be big. Right. There is no double standard here. Move along...

    Back to seat pitch. The only thing that will gain us more seat pitch is regulation. Otherwise, it is a race to the bottom. Saddles instead of seats (they're in the pipeline). Industry is always coldly poised to abuse our human dignity. Once again, the people, through their government, need to say no. Legislation, compliance and enforcement. We need all three. That involves a government with resources, not a skeletal framework.




    Name one case when it isn't.
    Yeah, Evan, "we" get it. Down with the evil bourgeoisie, power to the people!

    Not exactly new ideas you're spouting there (although they might be new to you, who knows?).

  6. #826
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    Yeah, Evan, "we" get it. Down with the evil bourgeoisie, power to the people!
    What? No, you don't get it. I'm talking about the size (and budget) of government.

    The government of the world's largest economy and 300 million citizens has to be "big". It has to have the resources to keep industry in check, to prevent it from oppressing the people, because otherwise it will, because it did until we made government bigger.

    So greater minimum seat pitch = bigger government. There's no way around that.

  7. #827
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Default Flight Attendant Incarceration

    I find this one both fun and creepy.

    A sad reflection on corporate America where metrics is everything and honesty and common sense be dammed.

    Probably some truth- After seeing that "the system" has so little slack in it and how the bean counters push and push, the FA's just don't give a rat anymore and might run to 'ground-based big-Lav' and never return.

    Soooo....keep the door shut so they can't get off.

    Is the opps dude a heartless tyrant?

    OR

    Does he just know his numbers are razor thin and the hosties numbers are razor thin and the bean-counters don't give a phugoid and that after living it, he no longer gives a phugoid...If they time out, they don't fly...but if they don't time out, he doesn't have to answer questions.

    Major crimes against humanity? No, they ARE being paid...

    A little creepy...yeah.

    Slightly understandable...unfortunately yes to that too.

    (For the record, the margins and backups at ATL become thin very quickly...(All that modern scientific computer engineering on how to get more and more flights done by just the right schedule and maxing out everyone's duty time and airplane maintenance.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Huff Post
    A recent Delta flight leaving Atlanta ran into a maintenance problem, causing a lengthy delay before takeoff. As the airline tried to resolve the issue, someone feared the holdup might cause an even bigger headache: flight attendants walking off the plane because they had worked so long.

    So, according to internal communications reviewed by HuffPost, an employee in Delta’s operations control center sent a directive to the Delta gate agent handling the flight.

    “Do not open door,” the message read. “flt attendants out of time and none available.” The employee advised the gate agent to “let [maintenance] do their work without opening door thanks.”

    Whoever sent the message seems to have been worried that the flight attendants would soon hit their maximum duty hours ― the most they can be required to work continuously without a break. And that, tired and annoyed, they would walk off the plane, forcing the airline to scramble to find another crew, or cancel the flight.

    Flight attendant duty-hour rules vary from airline to airline. Generally, once an attendant hits the maximum hours for a series of flights, they can’t be forced to continue on the next segment, although they would get extra pay if they do. It isn’t clear whether these attendants would have had the option of leaving the plane in this particular situation, but someone in operations control apparently believed they did.

    The message above went out at 10:19 p.m. About a half-hour later, the operations center sent an even more urgent note: “Ok… if door is not closed by [11 p.m.] Flt attendants walking. We will most likely have to delay flight until morning if this happens.”

    Someone in the flight tower responded, “Copy.”

    The correspondence suggests the flight in question was Delta 1990, going from Atlanta to Toronto, on May 12. Flight history from the airline tracking site FlightAware.com shows the flight left nearly three and a half hours after it was scheduled to, at 11:27 p.m. It got to Toronto a little after 1:30 a.m.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  8. #828
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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  9. #829
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Default Delta rescues passengers from American Airlines debarcle


  10. #830
    Member ATLcrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    You're complaining?

  11. #831
    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    publicity stunt for sure. lord knows delta needs it! this by no means excuses aa's actions. i get it when flights get xcelled. what is mind boggling is how the world has allowed airlines to change contract law to suit their financial well being while sticking it to the public. any contract that allows one side to unilaterally breach and cause the other party damages while entirely avoiding any liability whatsoever, is normally called "illusory."

    yeah, it would cost lots of money to have the weather delayed/cancelled flight to run at the first opportunity, but in offering to transport pax for a fee, the airline assumed the risk of those costs, the same way pax assume the risks involved in purchasing a non-refundable ticket.

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    How long do you think it would take to come up with 10 examples of Delta not sending a "private plane" (what exactly does that mean, anyway?) to pick up stranded Delta pax?
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  13. #833
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    You're complaining?
    Based on the premise that no man should ever have to clean another man's toilet.

  14. #834
    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Based on the premise that no man should ever have to clean another man's toilet.
    wait, what? you do realize that some people do that for a living. i did it as a teenager. paid pretty well considering the limited options i had at the time.

    but, yeah, i get your point and agree with it.

  15. #835
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    How long do you think it would take to come up with 10 examples of Delta not sending a "private plane" (what exactly does that mean, anyway?) to pick up stranded Delta pax?
    I got one...

    Nine to go.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  16. #836
    Member ATLcrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Based on the premise that no man should ever have to clean another man's toilet.
    How is that different from your expectation that alliance partners should have aircraft available all over the world to cover other partners' aircraft going tech? Isn't this the same thing?

  17. #837
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    How is that different from your expectation that alliance partners should have aircraft available all over the world to cover other partners' aircraft going tech? Isn't this the same thing?
    Well, an alliance implies shared toilets i.e. a shared responsibility due to an existing voluntary agreement to clean each others toilets when necessary, as a mutually beneficial contingency plan. That is a bit different from just taking a dump and leaving it to someone else to deal with.

  18. #838
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    I am very curious about how did this end up happening. I am sure that Delta would not take a plane and a crew to send a plane where they don't needed it (i.e. where they don't have plans for this plane) to make an unscheduled flight just because "oh, poor students, aren't they cute?". Even if all the refund that AA gave them was used to pay for the flight.

    Now, if they happened to have to reposition an empty plane from Oklahoma to Richmond, then adding one flight attendant and letting them go in exchange of the refunded money is a win-win.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  19. #839
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I am very curious about how did this end up happening. I am sure that Delta would not take a plane and a crew to send a plane where they don't needed it (i.e. where they don't have plans for this plane) to make an unscheduled flight just because "oh, poor students, aren't they cute?".
    I'll give some credence to a genuine extra airplane sitting around.

    We have to get beyond actual black and white thinking. There ARE extra airplanes and capacity in the system- just not a whole lot. But this whole thing could very easily trace back to Storms at ORD and/or DFW while ATL and MSP were CAVU.

    Hell yeah, it's big time PR, but might have been worth dispatching the extra reasonably-positioned RJ from the regional partner.

    I have seen the reverse- a good ole storm system and there goes ATL.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  20. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post

    Hell yeah, it's big time PR
    In answer to ATL's question, I'm only complaining that this has to happen at all. As to the outcome here, It's promising, because it suggests a willingness to be competitive and a perception that customers still choose between operators based on their dedication to human decency. Hopefully, this trend will continue, with operators heroically jumping in when the competition shows a complete disregard for its customers, for the sake of PR. It's how a free, competitive market is supposed to improve a service. On the other hand, I doubt this will happen without some bona fide competition in the industry. So I doubt this will happen.

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