The United debarcle

[TeeVee]

ah, you misunderstood. i meant, if ONE had a ticket and the entire family died, that ONE would not get a refund for missing his/her trip cuz he.she had to bury the whole family....

[ATLcrew]

that's really a nonsensical statement there. Feelings: i feel i'm not getting my money's worth. Reality: seats are physically narrower and seat pitch is inches (PLURAL) shorter.

My point was more that even had the seats not gotten smaller, the feeling would have been the same. Sure, counselor, you're not devoid of the ability to read between the lines.

Carry on.

[TeeVee]

My point was more that even had the seats not gotten smaller, the feeling would have been the same. Sure, counselor, you're not devoid of the ability to read between the lines.

Carry on.

i can in fact read quite well between the lines. i still fail to see the logic in your statement, or even the basis therefor.

i get that you (supposedly) work for an airline, and thus feel the need to defend them to an extent. also, it shouldn't be lost on anyone that airlines' continued profitability (at pax expense) certainly benefits you and your co-workers.

the "feeling" part of pax stress these days is real. it's caused by ridiculous and mostly useless security measures, fees for wiping one's backside, overworked and stressed cabin and ground crew, lower service levels etc etc. at the same time, the physical characteristics of the airplanes have changed to the airlines' benefits and to pax discomfort. i've yet to fly a 737 Max (max profit?) but here that the lac sinks are so tiny even the cabin crew are complaining. not surprised, since even in the older 73s the sinks are quite useless and FAR smaller than those in the A30? family.

this is not just an airline problem though. less and less thought and consideration is being given to customer satisfaction/comfort in just about all walks of life.

[Gabriel]

this is not just an airline problem though. less and less thought and consideration is being given to customer satisfaction/comfort in just about all walks of life.

And this is our fault, we being the consumers, not individually, there are exceptions for sure, but at large.

We go for the lowest price. Disappointed? Then we might not buy that brand again but we go on again for the lowest price (or the next lower).
Companies that are not competitive at the lowest end just disappear.

[ATLcrew]

i can in fact read quite well between the lines. i still fail to see the logic in your statement, or even the basis therefor.i get that you (supposedly) work for an airline, and thus feel the need to defend them to an extent. also, it shouldn't be lost on anyone that airlines' continued profitability (at pax expense) certainly benefits you and your co-workers.the "feeling" part of pax stress these days is real. it's caused by ridiculous and mostly useless security measures, fees for wiping one's backside, overworked and stressed cabin and ground crew, lower service levels etc etc. at the same time, the physical characteristics of the airplanes have changed to the airlines' benefits and to pax discomfort. i've yet to fly a 737 Max (max profit?) but here that the lac sinks are so tiny even the cabin crew are complaining. not surprised, since even in the older 73s the sinks are quite useless and FAR smaller than those in the A30? family.this is not just an airline problem though. less and less thought and consideration is being given to customer satisfaction/comfort in just about all walks of life.

Oh, the Humanity! The sinks are too small...

[ATLcrew]

And this is our fault, we being the consumers, not individually, there are exceptions for sure, but at large.We go for the lowest price. Disappointed? Then we might not buy that brand again but we go on again for the lowest price (or the next lower).Companies that are not competitive at the lowest end just disappear.

BTW, TeeVee, Gabriel doesn't work for an airline. Not supposedly, not actually, not at all.

[BoeingBobby]

BTW, TeeVee, Gabriel doesn't work for an airline. Not supposedly, not actually, not at all.

Neither do I, anymore!

[Gabriel]

BTW, TeeVee, Gabriel doesn't work for an airline. Not supposedly, not actually, not at all.

Correct, but leaving blame apportioning at a side, I do agree with TeeVee. The airline service is better at price, safety and reliability and worse in any other aspect.

Oh, the Humanity! The sinks are too small... and the lavs are fewer than before, and they are putting more seats across than before, and more seats along than before, and my femur doesn't fit between seats unless I pay premium (premium including not only "economy plus" but also bulkhead seats and emergency exits in cattle class), even aisle seats are more expensive, and you cannot choose seats at the time of purchasing (unless you pay extra), and the meals have gone away, and the flight attendants are fewer than before (minimum required now), and the are not as friendly as they were, and and and... all pretty REAL things, not just perceptions.

But I do recognize that, when the low cost started to grow and reproduce, the main airlines did try to differentiate themselves by their better service while keeping the prices higher (not increasing them, but not reducing them to low-cost levels). It didn't work, people at great preferred the lower price of the low cost than the better service of the classics. Now they are all low cost.

[ATLcrew]

But I do recognize that, when the low cost started to grow and reproduce, the main airlines did try to differentiate themselves by their better service while keeping the prices higher (not increasing them, but not reducing them to low-cost levels). It didn't work, people at great preferred the lower price of the low cost than the better service of the classics. Now they are all low cost.

It's the same consumer mentality that made Walmart a bigger company than GM...

[3WE]

It's the same consumer mentality that made Walmart a bigger company than GM...

Awesome nuclear factual statement.

I want to believe there are some FUNDAMENTAL BASIC RIGHT AND WRONG GOVERNING PRINCIPLES, but alas they suck when we are forced to think about them...while yeah...let's go get some milk and motor oil and aspirin and blue jeans and an iPad and some nails and to hell with Mom & Pop's Hardware and Granny's Grocery and whether my nelson lawn sprinkler will last 10 years (as it used to) versus 1 year (as the Wally-World version) does...Yeah, I'm going Wally World.

[Evan]

i get that you (supposedly) work for an airline...

Yeah! How do we know if you really...

Oh, the Humanity! The sinks are too small..

OK, I'm convinced.

[TeeVee]

It's the same consumer mentality that made Walmart a bigger company than GM...

one day, you too will be sitting in the back. you and those like will probably bitch louder and more often.

as for your walmart comment, sorry, bad analogy. those that don't like the shitty feeling/experience of shopping in walmart can choose another retailer and shop in a "better" environment, since there are many choices that have not lowered their standards to lower prices. air travel is a bit different. say you wanna fly from NY to LA. you have plenty of choices, (though maybe not so many non-stops) and all are competing to the bottom to see who can abuse the pax the most in an effort to squeeze every last penny.

i categorically reject the notion that consumers brought this on themselves. airlines were losing money long before the internet shopping craze and price comparison tools. and even if that were the case, where is the real evidence that ANY airline adjusted its pricing because it was losing market share due to shopping for the best price? wait, don't bother. there isn't any. people have ALWAYS sought the best prices. very few people--in the golden age of travel agents--called their agent and said, "get me the most expensive rt ticket to LA." or, "find me an airline that offers cheap fares for travelers not checking bags." shit! there used to be a massive army of biz travelers like me that almost never checked bags and we never got a discount. know why? cuz the fee structure was absolutely NOT invented to save travelers money. quite the opposite.

an insider friend tells me that 85% of AA's pax travel one time per year. i'd bet they are vacationing so not likely traveling without checking a bag. AA knew this and knows this and imposed the bag fee to earn more not save us money.

lastly, GM is the shit company it is because they lost sight of customer satisfaction and building good products in exchange for making wall street happy. meanwhile, the japanese continued to design and produce smart, efficient, well-built products and practically killed the US automakers. go ahead now and blame that on the unions....

[elaw]

TeeVee,

Generally I agree but at least for me, price shopping was a fair bit more difficult before everything was online.

Back around 1990 when I flew several times a year for work, this is how it would go. You call the travel agent and tell the person you need a round-trip flight to somewhere on some dates. You'd hear keyboard noises for a few moments and get the reply "I can get you on flight X for $XXX". You'd then ask "do you have anything cheaper" and there would be more keyboard noises then "Well there's flight Y for $YYY". A couple more iterations of that and you'd end up booking a flight for usually less than half of the initial number quoted.

My point being that I bet a lot of people didn't do that... they'd just call the travel agent (or airline) and take the first offer. For a much higher price than they could have gotten if they'd known how to "negotiate".

[3WE]

[To ATLCrew]: one day, you too will be sitting in the back. you and those like will probably bitch louder and more often.

I am definitely not_in the airline business. I only participate in parlour-talk aviation forums and read obscure Flying magazines...but, as best as I can tell, airline pilots spend LOTS of time in the back commuting here and there as an integral part of their job (a part for which they are not paid, too).

...and I ass-ume they 'appreciate' the great seat pitch and the wide folks and arm rests and folks sticking bare feet between seats and the inadequate procedures of cramming stuff into overhead bins and late departures and fazzled fright attendants and etc, much like we do.

[BoeingBobby]

I am definitely not_in the airline business. I only participate in parlour-talk aviation forums and read obscure Flying magazines...but, as best as I can tell, airline pilots spend LOTS of time in the back commuting here and there as an integral part of their job (a part for which they are not paid, too).

...and I ass-ume they 'appreciate' the great seat pitch and the wide folks and arm rests and folks sticking bare feet between seats and the inadequate procedures of cramming stuff into overhead bins and late departures and fazzled fright attendants and etc, much like we do.

You think I positioned for a flight without pay? Hate to be the bearer of bad news but, sit in the back, get paid! Not a bad deal when it was from MIA to DXB business class as well per our contract for international.