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  • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
    right. so in your "career" as a pilot for how many years? how many times have you slammed the brakes while taxiing?
    At least once a month. If I'm operating in and out of ATL, once a day easy.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Your tendencies for invalid arguments are interesting. The argument isn't CAT vs. Taxi- its Belted vs. Non Belted.
      let's see. what part of the argument is invalid? it's not against the regs to walk around freely when seatbelt sign is off even though the incidence of injuries secondary to CAT is far higher than injuries while parked on a taxiway or even moving on a taxiway. plenty of FA's get injured when at cruise altitude with seatbelt lights off. how many have been hurt by brake slams on the ground where they don't have to be seated and belted?


      the closest analogy i can think of is this: states that have seatbelt laws but not helmet laws.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        How about- Unexpected, sudden, firm braking, harder than one generally wishes to do and something that might make an ordinary standing person stumble and an occasional person fall, and which would tend to cause an FA to say "Woah" and grab a seat back in a demonstration of genius fundamental attendanpersonship.
        Accurate.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
          At least once a month. If I'm operating in and out of ATL, once a day easy.
          Why?

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          • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
            At least once a month. If I'm operating in and out of ATL, once a day easy.
            unless you're not paying attention, i have a hard time believing that. but assuming arguendo it's true, how many flight attendants have you injured this way?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              unless you're not paying attention, i have a hard time believing that. but assuming arguendo it's true, how many flight attendants have you injured this way?
              Thankfully, none, so far. Submitted plenty of safety reports, though. Not that it does much good...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                Why?
                See if you can find a live feed from any of the ramps in ATL somewhere. How they don't have someone killed every single day is beyond me. And that's just one example. LAX is another. The South complex there is clusterbleep.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  unless you're not paying attention, i have a hard time believing that. but assuming arguendo it's true, how many flight attendants have you injured this way?
                  And the corollary question is how many FAs has ‘ATL’ injured from surprise CAT?

                  Give me totals for FAs, Pax, and the hours of total time exposure on everything, figures on belted, unbelted seated, or standing (24 discrete combos) and we can begin to make some valid comparisons. (Asking this of tee vee, not ATL).
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                    And the corollary question is how many FAs has ‘ATL’ injured from surprise CAT?

                    Give me totals for FAs, Pax, and the hours of total time exposure on everything, figures on belted, unbelted seated, or standing (24 discrete combos) and we can begin to make some valid comparisons. (Asking this of tee vee, not ATL).
                    Are you going to use conventional MANOVA or Taguchi?

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      Are you going to use conventional MANOVA or Taguchi?
                      Believe it or not, the first step is to simply "look at" the data. I am worried about the sample size for passengers standing during taxi, and am not sure how to handle "length of taxi" and "length of cruse with seatbelt sign on AND off...and perhaps length of flight, all as covariates. If we can get a good dataset, I'll visit with you more about analyses.

                      Finally, we have the elusive courtroom factor- "Why in the hell would you let passengers walk around during taxi when you KNOW that ATL slams on the brakes (or the wordy version described above) once a month….taxi averages 15 minutes so you should know that the risk is greatly increased for that short time period". I know Mr. Tee Vee wants to compare surprise CAT at cruise, but since it's usually predictable, and since the policy is for passengers to be belted anyway and because we are talking hours instead of minutes and because people have to pee, total-surprise-injurious CAT is a genuine, but small and acceptable risk, since people have to pee. The risk for folks to pee during a 15 minute taxi...UNNECCESARY.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Believe it or not, the first step is to simply "look at" the data. I am worried about the sample size for passengers standing during taxi, and am not sure how to handle "length of taxi" and "length of cruse with seatbelt sign on AND off...and perhaps length of flight, all as covariates. If we can get a good dataset, I'll visit with you more about analyses.

                        Finally, we have the elusive courtroom factor- "Why in the hell would you let passengers walk around during taxi when you KNOW that ATL slams on the brakes (or the wordy version described above) once a month….taxi averages 15 minutes so you should know that the risk is greatly increased for that short time period". I know Mr. Tee Vee wants to compare surprise CAT at cruise, but since it's usually predictable, and since the policy is for passengers to be belted anyway and because we are talking hours instead of minutes and because people have to pee, total-surprise-injurious CAT is a genuine, but small and acceptable risk, since people have to pee. The risk for folks to pee during a 15 minute taxi...UNNECCESARY.
                        what are you smoking?

                        this conversation began with an article about being parked on a taxiway (supposedly active, but i've never heard of any taxiway not being active, and the act of "parking" on a taxiway tends to make it inactive). you then have changed the narrative to talking about belted vs. non-belted, walking around fraternising etc etc.

                        my point is and always has been that there is no sense in the regulation that requires pax to be seated and belted while parked and doing squat for hours on end.

                        enough BS, let's look at the law:

                        14 CFR 121.317(b). Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, the “Fasten Seat Belt” sign shall be turned on during any movement on the surface, for each takeoff, for each landing, and at any other time considered necessary by the pilot in command.

                        14 CFR 121.317(f). Each passenger required by § 121.311(b) to occupy a seat or berth shall fasten his or her safety belt about him or her and keep it fastened while the “Fasten Seat Belt” sign is lighted.

                        violation of the foregoing is CIVIL not criminal.

                        so the plane is parked, wherever, you KNOW that it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and you know that people have to use the lav. you have 2 choices: turn off the light and allow folks some dignity and comfort (rare as that is today) or tell them to fuck off, force them to violate the civil regulation, call the police and cause havoc at the gate, thus subjecting an otherwise law abiding citizen to civil enforcement action by the FAA for having to pee, crap etc.

                        p.s. 3bs: the danger of CAT is exactly that it is NOT predictable.

                        Comment


                        • to throw more wood on the fire, a quick search of NTSB stats using the term "clear air turbulence" for the period of 01/01/2000 - 10/07/2009 reveals 44 separate instances of CAT resulting in injuries. obviously this only includes US flights and airlines.

                          as far as i'm concerned, risk of injury from CAT is higher than brake slam

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                            so the plane is parked, wherever, you KNOW that it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and you know that people have to use the lav. you have 2 choices: turn off the light and allow folks some dignity and comfort (rare as that is today) or tell them to fuck off, force them to violate the civil regulation, call the police and cause havoc at the gate, thus subjecting an otherwise law abiding citizen to civil enforcement action by the FAA for having to pee, crap etc.
                            There is a third option that might not occur to litigators: be a decent human being. You want to keep the seatbelt sign on and you want to keep people seated in case you get your clearance. You don't want people mingling around at that point, where its going to take you ten minutes to get the cabin ready again. But if someone has to use that lav and cannot wait until the plane is airborne at cruise altitude, that is called an emergency. Cabin crew are supposed to be trained to deal with emergencies, but apparently not this one. Nevertheless, a small dose of human decency should suffice. This is how you do it:

                            Pax: Excuse me, I absolutely need to use the lavatory right away.

                            FA: We need to keep everyone seated and ready for takeoff. Is it urgent?

                            Pax: Very.

                            FA: Very well, but please hurry.

                            FA then gets on the interphone and informs the pilot that a passenger had to use the lav urgently and the cabin is not prepared until the passenger is reseated.

                            The flight crews says okey dokey, let us know.

                            The passenger returns to the seat. The FA informs the crew.

                            Nobody gets histrionic or litigious.

                            Done.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                              Parked...brake slam
                              Make up your mind which you want to talk about with dramatic and not-so-accurate courtroom theatrics.

                              CAT is probably more dangerous than being parked, not too much debate although there's a steady stream of ground collisions (A-380 vs. CRJ comes to mind).

                              Surprise brake slams do happen and do have risks just like surprise CAT happens and does have risks- again, not too much debate.

                              However, you continue to make dramatic, theatrical and one-sided rants that CAT data suggests that it's OK for folks to pee during active taxi, including an inaccurate statement that brake slams are incredibly rare, since you have never seen one (nor has Evan seen baggage cart driving during his similarly frequent flying).
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                Nobody gets histrionic or litigious.
                                Is there some saying about absolute statements?

                                Might I also suggest that several times a day, someone gets histrionic or litigious to a airline employees over any number of things...Customer service is such a cool place to work- try it sometime, Evan.
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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