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Thread: The United debarcle

  1. #21
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    Did the airport police go overboard? Yes! But.. Post 9-11 air travel has changed worldwide. You are asked by someone working for the airline to deplane, you get your baggage from under the seat or overhead, get off the plane and work it out in the terminal period. You don't like the seating, food, etc. Book with a different carrier or take a damn train or car. Nobody is forcing you to fly.

    And LH, when you buy that Barron let me know how the 32 gallons of avgas an hour at probably 7 or 8 dollars a gallon in Germany is working out for you! Let alone the 150k to 250k to buy it.

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    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
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    Bobby....for Christ sake, don't rattle his cage, he'll wake up !
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to fly.
    And when the cops shoot an unarmed person walking down the street, do you justify it by saying nobody was forcing the person to walk down the street?
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  4. #24
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Did the airport police go overboard? Yes! But.. Post 9-11 air travel has changed worldwide. You are asked by someone working for the airline to deplane, you get your baggage from under the seat or overhead, get off the plane and work it out in the terminal period. You don't like the seating, food, etc. Book with a different carrier or take a damn train or car. Nobody is forcing you to fly.
    Today's story:

    A couple to be wed...finds a man stretched out sleeping in their seats. No problem, the plane is light and they move up a few rows in the coach section.

    UA Hostie informs them they have moved up to that "new second class" section with the extra 0.683 inch of seat pitch and pretty multi-color head rests. FA's move the sleeping man and get the couple to move to their proper "third class" seats...A few minutes later, an air marshall approaches and asks the couple to leave the plane "for no reason"...they are rebooked for the next day.

    And to be a good journalist: "The story from United varies slightly"

    Where I am going with Bobby's comment AND this one is: Time to get body cams for the FA's...seriously...

    Is the FA being a jerk? (Tee Vee's rotten mayo)

    ...OR...

    is the passenger being a jerk?

    ...OR...

    is the system at fault and the FA is stuck being the 'paid agent of the screw over' and the situation goes down hill?

    If some threat is offered, then we are in Boeing Bobby black and white mode...Unfortunately we don't turn on our cell phone recorders for the crucial minutes as the incident begins...so sure, a small defense for the airlines and the need for security.

    Yes, we only see Dr. soon-to-be-Moneybags being dragged off and passengers supporting him. It does not matter if he has a long rap sheet of crimes...It DOES matter if he said something threatening...then (unfortunately) 'happy-logic' and common sense does go out the window (to a reasonable degree).

    And again, time for us to be smarter passengers. I'm sorry Mr/Ms flight attendant, I am seated with my legally purchased ticket in my legally preassigned seat with my other-than-last-second check in with my $25 suitcase underneath in the cargo hold. What lawful order from the flight crew am I ignoring? Mr. Law Enforcement, what laws am I charged with violating? Am I under arrest? If you wish to remove me, please obtain a warrant. (and yes, we need to have our recorders too! ...ideally turned on nice and early...)
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Today's story:

    .........

    Is the FA being a jerk? (Tee Vee's rotten mayo). Is the passenger being a jerk? Or is the system at fault and the FA is stuck being the 'paid agent of the screw over' and the situation goes down hill?
    Although it may not be the main issue, the apparent current trend toward making every seat a different "class" sure didn't help!
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    And when the cops shoot an unarmed person walking down the street, do you justify it by saying nobody was forcing the person to walk down the street?
    This Eric, does NOT even justify an answer.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to fly.
    Every now and again someone posts this little bit of absurdity. "Nobody is forcing you to fly"...

    Yes, somebody, namely society and the modern world, is forcing you to fly. You can't not fly for many reasons today. Now, you could say, "Nobody is forcing you to fly United, and this used to be true, before the US Justice Dept allowed a series of reckless megamergers that removed your ability to choose your airline. The incident flight was the only flight leaving ORD for SDF that evening. The only competition left on that route is American and their last flight was earlier in the afternoon. So yes, sometimes you DO have to fly and you DO have to fly United, thanks to corporate lobbying and the general corruption of our far-from-disinterested Federal government.

    And, despite airline contracts of carriage, which are unconscionable contracts of adhesion and would not be legally enforceable without the aforementioned corruption, when the airline accepts your money and returns you a confirmation number (and, in most cases a seat assignment), you have the ethical right to that service and that seat (unless safety concerns, security concerns or equipment problems intervene). An airline simply booting you off a flight that you paid for because their employees need that seat for logistical reasons is a pure and glaring ethical violation. And to add validity to that statement, you will notice that United has just changed their policy to prohibit this from happening again. Of course, they will still boot you off the flight before you board... only Federal regulations are going to prevent unethical abuse of implied contracts in the airline industry.

    Which means you, guy in 36A, need to stop voting for game show hosts and puppets of industry and elect a legitimate government that will represent your rights over those of corporations.

    What else can you do? Well, there's this thing called 'civil disobedience'. It got us the civil rights bill of 1964. When a woman didn't want to give up her seat on a bus, despite the bus company 'policy' she helped us to establish new rights and a more universal dignity.

    No one was forcing her to take a bus
    , you could have argued...

    : \

    I honestly believe, if the Rosa Parks incident happened in 2017, she would have been forceably dragged off the bus with sustained injuries by armed security thugs dressed in psuedo-combat gear. That's how far we've come.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    This Eric, does NOT even justify an answer.
    Why not? Because a person walking down the street can reasonably expect that they will not be mistreated by the authorities, but someone boarding an airplane can not?

    The fact that "things are different since 9/11" does not justify the use of force in every situation, just because a person is occupying an airplane.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Why not? Because a person walking down the street can reasonably expect that they will not be mistreated by the authorities, but someone boarding an airplane can not?

    The fact that "things are different since 9/11" does not justify the use of force in every situation, just because a person is occupying an airplane.
    I never said that it did, in fact I opened with the fact that I believe that the police over reacted. This however does not change the fact that since 9-11 MANY things have changed, and will NEVER go back to the way it was. Hey I remember as a brand new First Officer that they were serving roast beef off of a carving cart and you were served on china and linen table cloths. Hell, we had one 74 with an aluminum piano on the upper deck!

  10. #30
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    This Eric, does NOT even justify an answer.
    If I may stick my nose in this:

    1. The answer is a gray area..."9/11" is not THE answer. Nor is "The customer is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS right."
    2. No fouls on anyone either. Bobby made his disclaimer...Eric's response was valid, and in fact, downright called for as "the other side of the story....

    ...well, maybe the quoted comment above was a bit dismissive...just to be factual...but it's all good.

    Dittos with: "you don't have to fly"...some truth in that statement...some truth that that statement dismisses valid counter points...The answer is a gray area...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I never said that it did, in fact I opened with the fact that I believe that the police over reacted. This however does not change the fact that since 9-11 MANY things have changed, and will NEVER go back to the way it was. Hey I remember as a brand new First Officer that they were serving roast beef off of a carving cart and you were served on china and linen table cloths. Hell, we had one 74 with an aluminum piano on the upper deck!
    Fair enough... I just have a slightly more extreme view. I don't think the police overreacted, I don't think they should have reacted at all. The United people never should have called them, and when called they should not have been willing to to United's dirty work.

    Or to put a slightly different slant on it: if the authorities are trying to convince us that violence on an aircraft is a bad thing, they should not themselves be acting violently on aircraft unless there's no alternative... which there clearly was in this circumstance.

    Re the other stuff... I would SO like to fly on a 747 with a piano bar but like you said... ain't never gonna happen.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  12. #32
    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Did the airport police go overboard? Yes! But.. Post 9-11 air travel has changed worldwide. You are asked by someone working for the airline to deplane, you get your baggage from under the seat or overhead, get off the plane and work it out in the terminal period. You don't like the seating, food, etc. Book with a different carrier or take a damn train or car. Nobody is forcing you to fly.
    really? you just do it because? because the airlines' needs outweigh the needs of their paying pax at any cost to the pax? sorta like this....
    i remember you posting that you closing in on retirement (congrats). tomorrow, some corporate exec stuffed suit hands you a letter laying you off, just because. because they can. oh and you lose your pension and benefits, just because. because they can.

    you and faaaaarrrrrrrr too many other people are and have been advocating that we all become sheeple to corporate greed. nothing is too far or too much. don't rock the boat. be a good pax and spread them cheeks for me, would ya?

    on that note let me veer way off course. today, i was once again forced to wait nearly an hour for my bags--my priority tagged bags--which were the last bags to be put on the carousel. this happens ALL THE TIME.

    here is a quote from aa's website: "At check in, your baggage will be tagged with branded Priority bag tags, and when you arrive at your destination, they’ll be among the first delivered to the baggage claim area."

    note they don't say the bags MAY be...Rather they'll (they WILL).

    priority tagging is a benefit of being elite, but it also comes to biz and 1st class pax as part of what you're paying for.

    i've been bitching to aa about this for years. do they care? nope. why? cuz they know/think i will do nothing. i'm seriously considering suing them for a partial refund of my biz class ticket price. not for the money, but to make a point. a point that if more people would make, corporations might act a bit differently.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    really? you just do it because? because the airlines' needs outweigh the needs of their paying pax at any cost to the pax? sorta like this....
    i remember you posting that you closing in on retirement (congrats). tomorrow, some corporate exec stuffed suit hands you a letter laying you off, just because. because they can. oh and you lose your pension and benefits, just because. because they can.

    you and faaaaarrrrrrrr too many other people are and have been advocating that we all become sheeple to corporate greed. nothing is too far or too much. don't rock the boat. be a good pax and spread them cheeks for me, would ya?

    on that note let me veer way off course. today, i was once again forced to wait nearly an hour for my bags--my priority tagged bags--which were the last bags to be put on the carousel. this happens ALL THE TIME.

    here is a quote from aa's website: "At check in, your baggage will be tagged with branded Priority bag tags, and when you arrive at your destination, they’ll be among the first delivered to the baggage claim area."

    note they don't say the bags MAY be...Rather they'll (they WILL).

    priority tagging is a benefit of being elite, but it also comes to biz and 1st class pax as part of what you're paying for.

    i've been bitching to aa about this for years. do they care? nope. why? cuz they know/think i will do nothing. i'm seriously considering suing them for a partial refund of my biz class ticket price. not for the money, but to make a point. a point that if more people would make, corporations might act a bit differently.
    You are an attorney correct? Stop your bitching and just call up NetJets and pass it on to your clients!

    https://www.netjets.com/Home/?gclid=...Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

  14. #34
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    And on a more serious note, I will repeat this again, this is post 9-11, there is NOTHING you or I will ever be able to do to make commercial air travel go back to the way it used to be. Yes I mostly carry box's so I don't have to go through some of it. But I do have to get to and from work. I sit in back like the rest of you, yes I am usually in uniform and I do get treated a little better than the rest of the heard. However I have been asked to deplane even in uniform. Either get used to it, or take a train, car, bicycle, walk or charter your own aircraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    ..."At check in, your baggage will be tagged with branded Priority bag tags, and when you arrive at your destination, they’ll be among the first delivered to the baggage claim area."...
    So...

    JMO, I can't believe they offer something like that.

    While I am just a lowly outsider, my casual observations show that baggage is treated with minimal priority.

    I guess I should say that some effort is made to push bags when there are tight connections, but aside from that, it seems that there is wide variability on when bags will show up.

    Rampie crew members (like Pilot crews and Hostie/Hosthe crews) are also six sigma computer optimized with reduced resilience...and it takes relatively little to muck up the finely honed ballet of parking, unloading, moving bags to the passengers or the next flight, etc.

    And the facial expressions of the folks and the frequency of seeing a bag fall off a cart and the tossing and dropping and how often your bag is more than a little bit boogered...

    And the topic you mentioned some time ago...if you get canceled, you ain't getting your bag back.

    That they'd go to any effort at all to put your special bags in a special place on the plane and then a special place on the carts and make a special effort to set them off first...that just does not compute with what I see out the windows.

    Conversely, there is now zero shame in lying about stuff...including, "oops, sorry I know it LOOKS like everyone is seated, but we're over booked".
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    i would but....most of my clients cannot/will not pay that much and about 1/2 of my travel is personal and i definitely aint that rich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    And on a more serious note, I will repeat this again, this is post 9-11, there is NOTHING you or I will ever be able to do to make commercial air travel go back to the way it used to be. Yes I mostly carry box's so I don't have to go through some of it. But I do have to get to and from work. I sit in back like the rest of you, yes I am usually in uniform and I do get treated a little better than the rest of the heard. However I have been asked to deplane even in uniform. Either get used to it, or take a train, car, bicycle, walk or charter your own aircraft.
    the heart of the problem is not 9/11 or post 9/11 related, other than by chronology. it's corporate greed run amock.

    as for you getting bumped, i can only assume you are dead-heading so, you should be the first to be asked to leave as between dead-headers and fare paying pax.

    ooooooorrrrrrrrrrrr, we can all start to rebel against the kind of shit that leads to a man being physically injured (lost 2 teeth and broken nose) for corporate profit. it's beyond despicable. unfortunately, the herd would rather get screwed over than stand up for themselves and the lame ass excuse we have for congresspeople and senators are too busy sucking the corporate tit to care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    As for you getting bumped, i can only assume you are dead-heading so, you should be the first to be asked to leave as between dead-headers and fare paying pax.
    Actually no, the last time I was bumped was on a company paid ticket home at the end of a pattern. I was told by the gate agent that I had purchased (my company's travel department) the last ticket and that is how they decide.

    I cannot emphasize this enough, and you are a highly educated man so I know you understand what I am saying if you can put your "corporate greed" anger aside for a moment, THIS IS A DIFFERENT DAY AND AGE! There are crazy ass f******g people in the world that want to do others harm because of their color, race, religion or what ever. If someone of authority, I don't care if it is a flight attendant, gate agent, or a TSA idiot comes up to you on an aircraft and asks you to get up out of your seat and deplane, you would be the smarter fellow to grab your bags, get off and try to work out the problem with the gate agent. It is a loose loose situation. I cannot tell you how may times I have told other flight crewmembers NOT to get into pissing matches with customs agents. Another loose loose situation.

  19. #39
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    ...a flight attendant, gate agent, or a TSA idiot comes up to you on an aircraft and asks you to get up out of your seat and deplane, you would be the smarter fellow to grab your bags, get off and try to work out the problem with the gate agent...
    Tough comment. I know there is some truth to it, but (and sadly) there is also truth to the 'resist' argument.

    Hell yes, there are idiots and hell yes you do not start cussing and yelling, or doing anything physical and for gosh sakes say nothing threatening...

    Maybe not WHAT you do, but HOW you do it with respect to 'resisting'.

    ...how about, turn you your cell phone video, and calmly begin, "Please repeat, you are asking me to leave the plane?...for what reason are you asking me to leave the plane...I am sorry, I refuse to exit, please get an officer of the law...officer, am I being charged...Yes officer, I will deplane when you return with a warrant, in the meantime, I purchased a ticket, obtained this boarding pass, legally boarded the plane and have done nothing illegal or even out of the ordinary?".

    Maybe at least record ALL of it, including asking other passengers to make some statements...THEN maybe get off the plane and THEN work it out with one of Tee Vee's colleagues...(as opposed to the gate agent you mention)
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    As we dissect and discuss all of this, how do "we" handle another, subtle-but-hugely-different situation like this:

    The weather is stormy at/around the destination. The Ops handbook and the dispatcher and the pilots ALL agree that there should be some extra fuel on board the RJ...AND WHOOPS, THEY ARE OVER WEIGHT.

    Some folks are gonna have to get bumped.
    (I've personally seen this!)I'm guessing that TeeVee is going to quickly cite that overweight IS covered in the COC- and far different from booting folks for a crew when there are three other flights potentially available.

    And, I guess we STILL have the argument that United stopped too soon on upping the price for someone voluntarily deplane.

    Still, this is interesting because- from the passenger viewpoint- it's not all that different.

    (Yeah, ideally you do not board people, but this starts to cross over into the 'understandable human mistake mode' where there's a minor communication breakdown and the gate agent boards the plane).
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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