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  • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    I also agree with Evan and suggest United purchase a magic wand to affect repairs and rescue aircraft.
    I suppose it does seem like magic to you, but airplanes do go tech with some regularity and major carriers do have spares at their major hubs to accomodate this. The alternative would be anarchy. Moreover, they have more spares overnight. This plane landed in Goose Bay around 9:30pm EST. I don't see why Untied couldn't get a plane up there from EWR in a far more timely fashion. I can only chalk it up to either a relentlessly optimistic maintenance effort or corporate indifference.

    But the real concern is not just whether Untied has spares in place, but whether they have a plan in place. Spares are rather useless if no one put them in the air. If Untied has a plan to deal with this sort of situation, it certainly didn't go to plan.

    Furthermore, Untied is part of the Galactic Empire—I'm sorry, Star Alliance—, in which they have an ally named Air Canada. A Star Alliance member airline should be willing to help a brother out, you would think. If it came to that. Which it shouldn't have.

    Anyway, if your recent first-class upgrade flight had been followed by this one, and you spent 14 hours in a Y-class child-restraining-seat wedged between two other slightly obese and increasingly restless victims, clinging to your papery airplane blanket for warmth and wondering if United had simply decided to write off the aircraft and let it rust in place, your customer loyalty honeymoon may have ended before the frozen sunrise.

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    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
      ***whether they have a plan in place.***
      Part of me agrees with you.

      On the other hand, about 2 years ago, there were a few storms around on a Sunday night. My flight from flyover left at 3:00 PM and I got to ATL at 11:00 PM after diverting to Memphis for a 3 hour fuel debacle AND ground holds. ATL was a total mess as gates and crews and aircraft and lavatory service crews and cabin clean up crews and rental cars and hotels and the Mr. Bojangles chicken store in terminal B had a massive cascade meltdown. Final blow was that my flight to Birmingham (delayed until 1:00 AM went ***POOF*** (probably no legal crew available)) and I get rebooked to arrive at Birmingham 24 hours after my original arrival and the realization that I was expected to spend both the night AND the day in wonderful ATL (with the suitcase down below somewhere).

      It was just a few broken lines of storms...that happens with some regularity...and the system went into major meltdown. And I was at THE hub where you'd supposedly have extra crews and aircraft out the wazoo...

      I guess I've become more forgiving of the triple threat of unplanned medical emergencies and broken doors and customs at obscure Canadian airports. Hell, US customs in New Yark is bad enough. Pretty bizarre turn of events as compared to a low pressure system and some lines of thunderstorms.

      It's not about A plan, but how many plans to you need...stormy night plans, snowstorm plans, medical plans, custom plans, people don't come to work plans...And I'm sure they do have plans...lots of plans and procedures and checklists...Sometimes it's gonna be a strange alignment of the wrong time to stop at far-out airport with a door that is going to bread. Sometimes some storms are going to derail the grand plan of shuffling hundreds of planes in and out of gates over a critical four hour window...

      I restate what is perhaps the more reliable plan: A crate full of alcho bevs, snacks and toilet paper that gets dumped onto the company G-V and is delivered in person by El Presidente del Unitad Veuelo and some other executives...
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        It was just a few broken lines of storms...that happens with some regularity...and the system went into major meltdown. And I was at THE hub where you'd supposedly have extra crews and aircraft out the wazoo...
        But you see the difference. This was a natural phenomena beyond the control of the airlines and affecting an entire airport. We know what a house of cards modern American airports can be. It's like a domino-effect after you set up the dominos on the side of a volcano. "Whoa! Didn't see that coming..."

        If you're lucky it's just a line of thunderstorms and not several lines of incongrous third-party booking software.

        But I'm talking about the rare but inevitable case of a plane diverting and then going tech on you. One plane.

        I restate what is perhaps the more reliable plan: A crate full of alcho bevs, snacks and toilet paper that gets dumped onto the company G-V and is delivered in person by El Presidente del Unitad Veuelo and some other executives...
        And then they have to sit on the plane, middle-row, nursury section, for another ten hours.

        Agreed.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by elaw View Post
          Or maybe thinking it doesn't make sense to pay a customs person to sit around all night twiddling their thumbs when there are no scheduled flights.

          Do you think it is sensible to have a customs officer stationed at every airport on the planet 24/7/365 because a foreign airliner might experience a problem and have to land there?
          not at all, but you clearly did not read my entire post.

          while we're on the topic of sensibility based on chance...how does it make sense to spend literally BILLIONS worldwide to have massive fire-rescue crews at airports sitting around cooking, baking, polishing their "equipment", and playing cards, when airplane emergencies at airports are ridiculously rare?
          Last edited by TeeVee; 2019-01-23, 12:11. Reason: sarcasm

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Evan View Post
            But you see the difference.
            Yes. A big difference. 3000 people screwed over by a very predictable and common event, vs 300 screwed over by some really bad luck of a broken door at the worst possible time and place...

            We need more plans, procedures and regs.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              not at all, but you clearly did not read my entire post.
              Sure I did, all two sentences of it:
              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              no customs officer on the overnight... well, i guess there is no way to corral these people in a small area of what is already a small airport. lack of thinking/caring on the part of some government turds.
              If there's some meaning there other than blaming the government for a customs officer not being present, please enlighten me.

              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              while we're on the topic of sensibility based on chance...how does it make sense to spend literally BILLIONS worldwide to have massive fire-rescue crews at airports sitting around cooking, baking, polishing their "equipment", and playing cards, when airplane emergencies at airports are ridiculously rare?
              It makes no sense at all until an accident happens, then it does.

              There's a huge difference between that and the "customs problem". When an aircraft crashes, seconds & minutes are critical for rescuing victims and limiting property damage. So the crews must be physically close to the scene to get there in a timely fashion. What Gabe proposes - having customs officers "on call" somewhere nearby where they might be able to get there in an hour, would cost way less (as there's no equipment involved and you don't need to provide housing for the people, as well as far fewer people being involved) and would provide performance far better than what happened in this incident.
              Be alert! America needs more lerts.

              Eric Law

              Comment


              • Originally posted by elaw View Post
                Sure I did, all two sentences of it:
                If there's some meaning there other than blaming the government for a customs officer not being present, please enlighten me.

                It makes no sense at all until an accident happens, then it does.

                There's a huge difference between that and the "customs problem". When an aircraft crashes, seconds & minutes are critical for rescuing victims and limiting property damage. So the crews must be physically close to the scene to get there in a timely fashion. What Gabe proposes - having customs officers "on call" somewhere nearby where they might be able to get there in an hour, would cost way less (as there's no equipment involved and you don't need to provide housing for the people, as well as far fewer people being involved) and would provide performance far better than what happened in this incident.
                ok, i'll break it down for you into easier language: NO CUSTOMS OFFICER(S) are required to place pax in a part of the airport terminal and keep them there. period. end of discussion.

                the analogy was simply a dollars and cents comparison. no customs officer for $$$ reasons. and let's be honest, when planes crash, most of what the rescue crews do is put out a fire, where folks are either already out the ac or dead. or occasionally, run over a living passenger and kill them...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  ok, i'll break it down for you into easier language: NO CUSTOMS OFFICER(S) are required to place pax in a part of the airport terminal and keep them there.
                  Says you.

                  I don’t think we necessarily disagree- but it appears that someone there doesn’t think you can corral those criminal illegals from the south. Airport buildings have exits...you need trained, approved authorities to guard the doors.

                  (Again- not my thoughts, but not my call.)

                  (Acknowledgement: You did cite government turds in your original disputed post)
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    not at all, but you clearly did not read my entire post.

                    while we're on the topic of sensibility based on chance...how does it make sense to spend literally BILLIONS worldwide to have massive fire-rescue crews at airports sitting around cooking, baking, polishing their "equipment", and playing cards, when airplane emergencies at airports are ridiculously rare?
                    You all talk about having plans in place. Emergency services are part of a generally very well oiled plan. It’s called EMERGENCY PLANNING. To be able to operate as an airport such plans are mandatory. They have to be on the airport ready to go in seconds, that’s why they are called EMERGENCY services.
                    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      you need trained, approved authorities to guard the doors.
                      ...and need to pay them! And that's the problem.

                      It's all fun and games until someone receives a bill...
                      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                      Eric Law

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Says you.

                        I don’t think we necessarily disagree- but it appears that someone there doesn’t think you can corral those criminal illegals from the south. Airport buildings have exits...you need trained, approved authorities to guard the doors.

                        (Again- not my thoughts, but not my call.)

                        (Acknowledgement: You did cite government turds in your original disputed post)
                        Why are we even discussing this? Goose Bay is an air force base that is frequently used as a technical stop by shorter-range transatlantic airliners. It is also a Canadian port-of-entry for private aircraft (up to 15 passengers) so Customs officers are on call. But not for 777's and not in the middle of the night. But none of this is the point here.

                        Think about it. Mega-airline United lands on your airstrip and then goes tech with hundreds of passengers on board. You are going to assume one of two things will now happen. EIther a) the techs get the problem sorted out shortly and the plane departs, or b) United gets a replacement aircraft up there within hours and takes the passengers off your hands. In either case, there is little reason to go through the difficulty of deplaning, corralling and providing food and services to hundreds of passengers. They won't be there more than a handful of hours and they are currently aboard a comfortable (assumedly) heated aircraft set-up to carry them on a 7+ hour journey.

                        What you don't assume is that mega-airline United is going to leave them there for 14 hours! By hour seven, you still assume United will be arriving to rescue their passengers at any moment. When do you give up and assume they have been abandoned by their airline? When do they become YOUR humanitarian responsibility?

                        The onus here is ENTIRELY on United. They left their customers (and crew) up there for 14 HOURS! One passenger tweeted that they were still on the tarmac 24 HOURS after arriving. Nobody at Goose Bay would have assumed that a corporate rescue mission from their wealthy southern neighbor would take so long. Hopefully they learned something here about those assumptions...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                          You all talk about having plans in place. Emergency services are part of a generally very well oiled plan. It’s called EMERGENCY PLANNING. To be able to operate as an airport such plans are mandatory. They have to be on the airport ready to go in seconds, that’s why they are called EMERGENCY services.
                          Tee Vee makes an interesting point. It’s kind of rare that on field emergency services saves people. A whole plane load of people burnt up once, we watch another airliner burn up on the ramp (FAs and the passengers saved themselves), the Little Rock rescue crew couldn’t find the plane (and many passengers walked up the hill to a motel). Yeah, someone needs to put out the fire and call all the ambulances in the area, and yeah you got nifty plans, but it’s rare that these super elite crews save a life, AND we have the Asiana incident where they ran over a passenger and I don’t think they pulled anyone out of the plane.

                          Of course, isn’t there supposed to be more rescue boats or something?
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                            You all talk about having plans in place. Emergency services are part of a generally very well oiled plan. It’s called EMERGENCY PLANNING. To be able to operate as an airport such plans are mandatory. They have to be on the airport ready to go in seconds, that’s why they are called EMERGENCY services.
                            brian, i spent 15 years as a paramedic in NYC, so i very well understand "emergencies." i worked the avianca crash in long island (mostly collecting body parts).

                            i'm not advocating doing away with rescue at airports. simply pointing out that we as a society, spend tons of money on standby services. i was not, for those not keen enough to read between the lines, not advocating that every airport have a standby customs officer for emergencies.

                            while evan now places the blame squarely on united, i don't. i blame local authorities who prohibited the deplaning of several hundred people for immigration reasons. where the hell would they have run off to? asinine! put them in the terminal and post a few people--flight attendants--to make sure they stay in the designated area. if anyone decided to run, local law enforcement could've dealt with it.

                            it's about humane treatment and common sense--which apparently is not so common.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                              it's about humane treatment
                              Ironically, the Humane societies seem to care more with the well being and humane treatment... of animals.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                                while evan now places the blame squarely on united, i don't.
                                Do a little research. Goose Bay AFB (YYK) cannot accomodate disembarking a large airliner. When ElAl had to land a 747-400 there, they stayed on the plane. When AirFrance had to land an A380 there, they stayed on the plane.

                                Here's the difference: ElAl had their replacement 747 there in about 11 hours and flew the passengers onward to their destination. Air France had a replacement 777 leaving Goose Bay in about 17 hours (although the first class pax got wisked off in a chartered 737 three hours earlier) and flew the passengers onward to their destination. United had their passengers still at Goose Bay 24 hours after landing there, and then took them back to where they started from.

                                Now get out a map and plot the distance from Goose Bay to Tel Aviv, Paris and Newark. That should tell the tale.

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