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Quick question - runway length (if someone can answer quick thanks!)

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  • Quick question - runway length (if someone can answer quick thanks!)

    Can someone give me the "quick and easy" answer - if a runway is listed lets say at "10,000ft length" where is that measure from in the image below (for departure). The image RED line is the runway from start of pavement to end of pavement. Yellow/green lines are self explanatory.

    Which 'line color' would the "10,000 ft" be?

    Click image for larger version

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    Thanks!

  • #2
    Originally posted by obmot View Post
    Can someone give me the "quick and easy" answer - if a runway is listed lets say at "10,000ft length" where is that measure from in the image below (for departure). The image RED line is the runway from start of pavement to end of pavement. Yellow/green lines are self explanatory.

    Which 'line color' would the "10,000 ft" be?

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]7565[/ATTACH]

    Thanks!
    If you want a quick answer, then it is "neither".

    If you want something more, there is no such a thing as a "run way length". Each runway has several lengths. 3 in fact:
    TORA (take-off run available)
    TODA (take-off distance available)
    LADA (landing distance available)

    And these 3 numbers can be different in each direction of the same strip of asphalt. They can be one thing for 09 and a different thing for 27.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      If you want a quick answer, then it is "neither".

      If you want something more, there is no such a thing as a "run way length".
      If that's true, why don't Jepp 10-9 pages have at least three length for each runway? Why do they only have one? From where to where is that one-single length measured? Again, I'm talking only about the 10-9, not 10-9A.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by obmot View Post
        Can someone give me the "quick and easy" answer - if a runway is listed lets say at "10,000ft length" where is that measure from in the image below (for departure). The image RED line is the runway from start of pavement to end of pavement. Yellow/green lines are self explanatory.

        Which 'line color' would the "10,000 ft" be?

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]7565[/ATTACH]

        Thanks!
        Red.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
          If that's true, why don't Jepp 10-9 pages have at least three length for each runway? Why do they only have one? From where to where is that one-single length measured? Again, I'm talking only about the 10-9, not 10-9A.
          - It is 4, I forgot the ASDA (accelerate-stop distance available)
          - I am not familiar with the Jepp 10-9 or 10-9A (basically, I don't know what you are talking about)
          - The Argentinian MADHEL lists only one distance when there are no displaced thresholds, stopways or clearways.
          - The right answer would be RED only if there is no stopway or clearway after the displaced arrows on the left side.
          - To plan your take-off*, the TORA (includes neither stopway nor clearway) but be greater than you take-off run (the distance to lift-off with an engine failing at V1), the TODA (includes the clearway) must be greater than your take-off distance (the distance to achieve 35ft AGL and V2 with an engine failing at V1) and the ASDA (includes stopway) must be greater that your accelerate-stop distance (your distance to accelerate to V1 and stop). The clearway is a zone free of obstacles where the plane can accelerate and climb after lifting off. The stopway is a paved zone where the airplane can brake and stop but airplanes are not allowed there except during an emergency stop after rejecting a take-off, typically the stopway is marked with yellow chevrons (although the opposite is not true: the yellow chevrons are not part of the runway and may or may be not be declared as stopway).

          Finally, the LADA is not related to departures, but is the distance from the displaced threshold (after the arrows) to the end of the runway (including the arrows in the opposite side, but not any stopway).

          Click image for larger version

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          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • #6
            the simple answer is ask the concrete contractor...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              - It is 4, I forgot the ASDA (accelerate-stop distance available)
              - I am not familiar with the Jepp 10-9 or 10-9A (basically, I don't know what you are talking about)
              - The Argentinian MADHEL lists only one distance when there are no displaced thresholds, stopways or clearways.
              - The right answer would be RED only if there is no stopway or clearway after the displaced arrows on the left side.
              - To plan your take-off*, the TORA (includes neither stopway nor clearway) but be greater than you take-off run (the distance to lift-off with an engine failing at V1), the TODA (includes the clearway) must be greater than your take-off distance (the distance to achieve 35ft AGL and V2 with an engine failing at V1) and the ASDA (includes stopway) must be greater that your accelerate-stop distance (your distance to accelerate to V1 and stop). The clearway is a zone free of obstacles where the plane can accelerate and climb after lifting off. The stopway is a paved zone where the airplane can brake and stop but airplanes are not allowed there except during an emergency stop after rejecting a take-off, typically the stopway is marked with yellow chevrons (although the opposite is not true: the yellow chevrons are not part of the runway and may or may be not be declared as stopway).

              Finally, the LADA is not related to departures, but is the distance from the displaced threshold (after the arrows) to the end of the runway (including the arrows in the opposite side, but not any stopway).

              [ATTACH=CONFIG]7604[/ATTACH]
              I don't think the OP was asking a performance question.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                I don't think the OP was asking a performance question.
                It was the moment he added "for departure". If he had asked "for arrival", would your answer have been the same? No, you would have had to remove the displaced threshold distance on the right hand side (and add any possible stopway after the arrows on the left-hand side). And it is still the same strip of tarmac of the same length.

                The only "runway length" that makes sense is the length you can use. And then you have to ask "for what?"

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  the simple answer is ask the concrete contractor...
                  Yes. I'd bet, if we took both our home airports, you'll get four rwys for your airport, and 2 rwys for DUS. But dependent on who you ask, the TORA will differ in two or three feet.

                  For EDDL I know the following figures, taken from a semipro document:
                  23L 2645 m or 8,683 ft TORA
                  and
                  23R 2400 m or 7,879 ft TORA.

                  But what can we do if the concrete contractor is asleep at 2345 local? Then, I often take out my ruler...

                  These figures, of course, do not include the fact that, if your a/c is able to perform a 270° right turn north of L1, you are able to enjoy the full length:
                  23L with 3000 m or 9,849 ft .
                  Take off run ahead (TORA) only says something about the rwy length which is guaranteed under all circumstances, the minimal/guaranteed length of the rwy.
                  The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                  The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                  And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                  This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    the simple answer is ask the concrete contractor...
                    They, and their bill, probably claim it's 15,000'.
                    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                    Eric Law

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