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Thread: Lear 35 down approaching Teterboro

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Default Lear 35 down approaching Teterboro

    Looks like some kind of departure from controlled flight. Impacted a residential area resulting in a fire and destruction of buildings and vehicles. No casualties reported on the ground, but I imagine this will trigger another discussion about that neighboring threat...

    According to CNN, this is the 53rd fatal Learjet 35 accident since 1977.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/15/us...o-plane-crash/

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Purest of preliminary, unsubstantiated speculation: Lear's are known for PIO, and if you get to within (or beyond) 1/4 of a mile of the Airport and then crash a plane, with no 'obvious' distress call at this point...

    Of course, I would NEVER get myself into a PIO, although I had an old rear-wheel drive Toyota Corolla wagon that was harder than hell to straightened out if you started playing around fish-tailing on a gravel road...how do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?
    Les rčgles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    how do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?
    ...or in Portuguese? We once had a specialist here at JP for the Portuguese language.

    Carlstadt NJ, that's much nearer to Teterboro than I am to DUS. But the 06 at TEB is only 6,000 ft , so, nothing which I'd think about. Sully also only needed a few seconds to avoid TEB, in an A320. But in a Learjet?

    A Lear 36A theoretically only needs 2,900 ft (900 m) for a perfect landing. They should've made it.

    Good that only the captain and the F/O were on board. Bad that both died.. only 1 nautical mile away from the TEB 06? That's hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Looks like some kind of departure from controlled flight. Impacted a residential area resulting in a fire and destruction of buildings and vehicles. No casualties reported on the ground, but I imagine this will trigger another discussion about that neighboring threat...

    According to CNN, this is the 53rd fatal Learjet 35 accident since 1977.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/15/us...o-plane-crash/

    1973 - 1994 738 35 & 36's built. As of January, 2007, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board database lists 19 fatal accidents for the 35/35A, and two for the 36/36A.

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    Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Purest of preliminary, unsubstantiated speculation: Lear's are known for PIO, and if you get to within (or beyond) 1/4 of a mile of the Airport and then crash a plane, with no 'obvious' distress call at this point...

    Of course, I would NEVER get myself into a PIO, although I had an old rear-wheel drive Toyota Corolla wagon that was harder than hell to straightened out if you started playing around fish-tailing on a gravel road...how do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?
    Pilot Induced Oscillations (PIO) - for those of us who quite rarely sit in the left seat of a Lear.

    Ach Herrje. Ob das dieses Mal gut geht?

    New York State or NYC, both are good for so much. Calspan is a professional provider for Lear 35/Lear 36A training, which exactly includes maneuvers to avoid PIO. Thus, I assume that the Calspan crew includes Lear 35/Lear 36A flight instructors.

    I wasn't aware that a Lear 35 is prone for PIO, but as I said earlier, I'm still learning a lot. That indeed does not mean that the TEB accident is already solved.
    Men who I prefer due to their dob: Harry Belafonte, Michael E. Love and Don Henley.
    Men who I prefer due to their place of birth: Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon and Paul Anka (not really a Brazilian, but: Eso Beso Bossa Nova 1962).

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. I love it.

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    Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    I always say that I am a service oriented human bein, so.. Have a look (in German, but I translate):

    PIO, explained by the de wiki

    "Insbesondere wenn die Steuersysteme des Luftfahrzeugs nur mit Verzögerung auf die Kommandos des Piloten reagieren, ..."
    In English: Especially if aileron, rudder or the throttle quadrant of an a/c do only react with response time to the input of one of the pilots, ...

    Hm. I should ask a B744/B748i flight instructor, but isn't that a phenomenon that occurs in almost all jets? The bigger the jet the more preparation time you need? I know that a B744 needs
    ALOT of preparation before "she" is ready to pass the t.o.d. point...

    And also the two Lear 35 jet engines do not react as quick as a Baron 58... or do they.

    As we hadn't been on board it sometimes seems easy to explain phenomenons. RIP, you young pilots. Lear 35 or CR9 pilots often are not older than me.

    Is anyone able to publish the age of the two men in the Lear 35 cockpit?

    PS: Imho, in German there is one very short word, only a little bit longer than PIO: überziehen. Wow. That seems to be something that can happen by reflex. You try to gain alt, and you pull, but you forget that ALL a/c - not only jets - lose speed,
    the longer you pull the slower the a/c gets.
    That's the reason why I've NEVER used vnav in my B744. At least three times during a flight you should really feel how "she" reacts: during t/o, during step climb, and during descent. A/P is off in my B744 when that happens.

    And it is indeed a phenomenon when you pull and "she" takes off.
    Last edited by LH-B744; 05-16-2017 at 12:55 AM. Reason: Überziehen
    Men who I prefer due to their dob: Harry Belafonte, Michael E. Love and Don Henley.
    Men who I prefer due to their place of birth: Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon and Paul Anka (not really a Brazilian, but: Eso Beso Bossa Nova 1962).

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. I love it.

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    Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Sully, and I didn't understand it until I watched "his movie", always tried to explain another problem.

    208 seconds? As far as I remember that was the time in which Flight Captain C. Sullenberger had to
    a) take off
    b) gain alt, and the A320 was successful even after the loss of all engines
    c) see the geese and perceive that there is no way to avoid contact, the A320 will definitely make geese fricassee, at alt 3200
    d) perceive that all engines remain silent after the geese fricassee
    e) avoid TEB in a now sailing A320 after you turned off all frequencies
    f) be so keen and transform an A320 into a ship and save "all souls on board? - Yes, all 155." Which again is not only brilliant, and it deserves a Golden Star for Sully the Movie,
    but also the real Flight Captain Sullenberger deserves a Golden Star with a Diamond, and that's an opinion which I don't have all to often. Not either all too many men save 155 lifes in an a/c after the loss of all engines.

    Sully really deserves more than only the respect of one rather young semipro aviation enthusiast.

    Time is always short or very short in a jet. And I often had the idea to try "the Sully" in my semipro B744 simulator. But you don't try something like that only for fun, don't ya. I haven't tried it until today, and most probably I'll fail, as btw ALL persons failed who until today tried it: US Air A320 flight instructors, Airbus A320 aircraft engineers, nobody was able to reach TEB within 208 seconds.

    But in a Lear 35, with all engines running? Hm. The recorders should solve that case. I expect that a Lear 35 has a FDR, right?
    Men who I prefer due to their dob: Harry Belafonte, Michael E. Love and Don Henley.
    Men who I prefer due to their place of birth: Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon and Paul Anka (not really a Brazilian, but: Eso Beso Bossa Nova 1962).

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. I love it.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    ...Sully really deserves more than only the respect of one rather young semipro aviation enthusiast...
    Do not lay praises on Sully where Gabriel might see it.

    Gabriel points out that his water landing, albeit adequate, was not super duper perfectly nailed.

    HOWEVER, he then points out that Sully's QUICK DECISION PROCESS was pretty impressive...

    ...but it's usually a much longer discussion.

    Les rčgles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    And also the two Lear 35 jet engines do not react as quick as a Baron 58... or do they.
    I've heard it said that if one of those engines fails and the other is abruptly throttled up, the Lear 35 has a quick spin reaction...

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