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Thread: Air Canada pulls a Hans Solo

  1. #1
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Default Air Canada pulls a Hans Solo

    Near total disaster on a night visual approach:

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4ab79f58&opt=0

  2. #2
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    I think we should almost always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always tune the ILS...almost.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    This was a near total air disaster indeed. Well, more total than near, since the go-around was executed at 400 ft which should be about 1 mile out. But there were 4 planes lined up in the taxiway.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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  4. #4
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Are we color blind?

    Is it really necessary to dim down the runway lights like we do?

    Should we install directional taxi lights that show red to folks approaching?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Should we install directional taxi lights that show red to folks approaching?
    Or maybe a big (illuminated at night) "X" at the ends of taxiways that might be confused with runways. It's obviously not "standard" per current regulations, but the same symbology as a closed runway might give pause to someone absentmindedly trying to land on that "runway".
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Are we color blind?

    Is it really necessary to dim down the runway lights like we do?

    Should we install directional taxi lights that show red to folks approaching?
    How about we install runway-end identification lights and call them REIL? Oh, wait a second...

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  7. #7
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    This was a near total air disaster indeed. Well, more total than near, since the go-around was executed at 400 ft which should be about 1 mile out. But there were 4 planes lined up in the taxiway.
    Four large planes on the taxiway is a lot of metal. Enough to distort the localizer?

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    Are FDRs today sophisticated enough to show what the ILS indications were during the approach?
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  9. #9
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    I think we should almost always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always,
    [...]
    [shortened]
    [...]
    always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always tune the ILS...almost.
    Hm. I very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very VERY seldom spread requests for online friendship. And I am still convinced of my choice!

    The last 4 words in his #2 post are important, and I say that without that I've read what happened.

    My dear friend,
    who dares and does not tune that frequency. Obviously there are some.. One second.
    One evening, not long ago, I watched TV and I wondered what you will possibly do after you've lost one parent. Strange question, why did I wonder. You will possibly be annoyed because he will miss so many happenings which you liked to show him. But after you somehow have regained your countenance, you will also join again people who you don't know. Stay strong, Jimmy.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

  10. #10
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Are FDRs today sophisticated enough to show what the ILS indications were during the approach?
    Hm. A very good question. I'd say that very strongly depends on the a/c type.

    A few hours ago, I've read a public JACDEC message. The first six months of the year 2017 were the safest months in worldwide aviation, EVER?
    [six months with ZERO dead humans in a cabin of a commercial flight, worldwide?! ]

    Well, I don't know much about AC-A320s, but, as nobody was injured, I tend to say that

    1. all pilots
    and
    2. the FDR in an A320

    have received all NOTAMs (updates) which are available.

    For the FDR in a B744 I like to say the same, but I am not the NTSB, I have never read one.
    One evening, not long ago, I watched TV and I wondered what you will possibly do after you've lost one parent. Strange question, why did I wonder. You will possibly be annoyed because he will miss so many happenings which you liked to show him. But after you somehow have regained your countenance, you will also join again people who you don't know. Stay strong, Jimmy.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Four large planes on the taxiway is a lot of metal. Enough to distort the localizer?
    No. And, as a side note, they were in a visual approach (not saying that an eventual LOC distortion could not be still an issue).

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  12. #12
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Are FDRs today sophisticated enough to show what the ILS indications were during the approach?
    Yes. IF they were using it (they were in a visual approach). Anyway, since the plane is intact, you will also have the QAR which has much more and much better info (but is not crash/fire worthy).

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  13. #13
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    ZERO dead humans in a cabin of a commercial flight since December 31st 2016, worldwide. I like to thank JACDEC for that message.

    That includes Air Canada. I've sometimes wondered why Dorval does not share a JACDEC rank with my nickname. Somewhere they've discovered a difference.

    Is there a day in the future when JACDEC here on jetphotos explains why Qantas and Air Canada (AC) are below my nickname, in the 2016 ranking?

    Provide me a flight (dep and arr are equal for all providers)
    in a QF-B744 and a LH-B744 and an AC-B744 (if AC didn't leave the 747 club in 2003), and I say that all three should share one place in a ranking! With almost the same amount of seats (!), an intercontinental experience of clearly more than half a century, et cetera.

    But I've never fully trusted all statistics on this planet..
    One evening, not long ago, I watched TV and I wondered what you will possibly do after you've lost one parent. Strange question, why did I wonder. You will possibly be annoyed because he will miss so many happenings which you liked to show him. But after you somehow have regained your countenance, you will also join again people who you don't know. Stay strong, Jimmy.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    I wonder if the VASI, approach lighting and touch-down zone lights were working...


    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Asleep at the Yoke Vnav's Avatar
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    Just something to think about....

    They've been doing a lot of work on RWY28L at SFO with nightly closure of the runway, lights, and approach aids. If you didn't go there often and were expecting to see two parallel runways I suppose it's possible with RWY 28L out of service and relatively dark to assume that 28R was the left parallel and TXY C was the right parallel

    Some recent SFO NOTAMS:
    SFO 07/056 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L OUT OF SERVICE 1707120600-1707121500
    SFO 07/043 SFO RSFO 06/017 SFO RWY 28L ALS OUT OF SERVICE 1706021357-1707211500
    SFO 06/017 SFO RWY 10R/28L CLSD DLY 0600-1500 1707110600-1707131500
    Parlour Talker Extraordinaire

  16. #16
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I wonder if the VASI, approach lighting and touch-down zone lights were working...

    [shortened]
    Hm. You better don't ask me about the LH experience at SFO, this does no longer concern "my a/c type",
    although it is my avatar: LH-B744 at the Bay Intercontinental airport.
    But today, the Bay is not a LH 747 topic... ..

    In general, the SF Bay Intercontinenal airport is not a bad airport. But I use semipro Boeing simulators for California since almost a decade... The procedures are definitely different from JFK, but not so very different from LAX, keyword nose dive ...

    Where did I read that SFO regularly turns off all IFR frequencies? Must've been a source with jetphotos in its name. Yes. And then a jet pilot with four engines can show what he's able to do. Good that we have airports like the SF bay, they are the spice in aviation!
    One evening, not long ago, I watched TV and I wondered what you will possibly do after you've lost one parent. Strange question, why did I wonder. You will possibly be annoyed because he will miss so many happenings which you liked to show him. But after you somehow have regained your countenance, you will also join again people who you don't know. Stay strong, Jimmy.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

  17. #17
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Default Report when SFO is visual.

    SFO is DUS minus...

    Local time, thats the topic where I always stop to write.. But let me try the world clock.
    DUS 0736 local.
    JFK 0136 local.
    and SFO is JFK minus 3 ? .. the date changes, damn!

    JFK minus 1 .. 0041 -- minus 2 2341 and -- minus 3 2241 (Tue July 11th).

    SFO then should be 2241 (July 11th) at this very moment.

    Thus, SFO is DUS minus .. 9? So, DUS 2155 is .. daylight in the bay. Yes, schedules do not change that much.

    And why did I do that calculation? Not for photos of a LH-B744..

    For Gabe. You can assume that LH 454 pilots have daylight. But with a four engined jet, it remains interesting enough, with all instrument frequencies turned off:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Fr...rport_2010.jpg
    One evening, not long ago, I watched TV and I wondered what you will possibly do after you've lost one parent. Strange question, why did I wonder. You will possibly be annoyed because he will miss so many happenings which you liked to show him. But after you somehow have regained your countenance, you will also join again people who you don't know. Stay strong, Jimmy.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Yes. IF they were using it (they were in a visual approach). Anyway, since the plane is intact, you will also have the QAR which has much more and much better info (but is not crash/fire worthy).
    I think what it recorded is deviation from the localizer, so if the localizer is distorted, it would just show zero deviation. Anyway, I realize that this was visual (the crew saw and inquired about the aircraft on the taxiway) but an erroneous ILS approach could have led them to an erroneous visual assessment on final.

    There are two areas of concern in preventing dynamic multipath interference with ILS:

    Critical Area: The ILS critical area is an area of defined dimensions about the localizer or glide path antenna, such that aircraft and other vehicles within the area cause out-of-tolerance disturbances to the ILS signals-in-space from the limit of the coverage to a distance of 3.7 km (2NM) from the landing threshold.

    Sensitive Area: The ILS sensitive area is an area of defined dimensions about the localizer or glide path antenna, such that aircraft and other vehicles within the area cause out-of-tolerance disturbances to the ILS signals-in-space from a distance of 3.7 km (2NM) from the landing threshold to the point at which the ILS signal is no longer required for the intended operation.

    I just can't imagine how they could ignore the approach lighting on final, unless I consider Vnav's theory...

    Anyway, you might find this interesting:

    http://www.icasc.co/sites/faa/uploads/documents/resources/15th_int_flight_inspection_symposium/ils_critical_sensitive.pdf

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  19. #19
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vnav View Post
    Just something to think about...relatively dark...assume that 28R was the left parallel and TXY C was the right parallel...
    A few months ago, I was trying to explain runway 13 at Flyover international airport to Gabriel...The taxiway north of 12L-30R was declared a runway and used for regional turboprops in the TWA heyday.

    The ATIS almost always said for folks to use caution to avoid mixing up 12L and 13. The tower would ask aircraft if they were familiar with 13.

    Bottom line- it's something of a challenge and we seem to have these recurring incidents...lots of fodder for parlour talk, BUT conversely, I imagine this has been studied and beaten to death by true experts.

    Since you have us "thinking", I will restate my one genuine thought- it seems to me that "we" dim the runaway lights too much. I know there's valid reasons for the dimness, but given that you occasionally land into severe sunrises and sunsets, it shouldn't kill you to deal with brighter runway lights.

    That and a simple cross check of a magenta line or something...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    From:https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-rele...r20170802.aspx

    Runway 28L was closed to accommodate construction; its approach and runway lights were turned off, and a 20.5-ft-wide lighted flashing X (runway closure marker) was placed at the threshold. Runway and approach lighting for runway 28R were on and set to default settings, which included a 2,400-foot approach lighting system, a precision approach path indicator, touchdown zone lights (white), runway centerline lights (white at the approach end), runway threshold lights (green), and runway edge lights (white at the approach end).

    Quite inexplicable.

    edit:
    • Automatic Terminal Information Service Q was current and included an advisory that runway 28L was closed and that its approach lighting system was out of service.

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