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Thread: Air Canada pulls a Hans Solo

  1. #101
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Note that, after some accidents and incidents, Boeing eliminated the possibility of entering CWS mode just by manipulating the control wheel while in AP. Now you have only one method to enter CWS, which is by selecting that mode.
    I wasn't aware that full CWS mode didn't always require a switch to engage it. There is still a blended CWS under CMD that doesn't. This realm of blended automation can be particularly dangerous. Aeroflot 593 learned that the hard way.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    I may not have the same invitation, but I'll bet you a steak dinner I can do it.

    Gabriellian comments:

    I've been impressed with small town FBO pilots who right seat a 172 in the morning, left seat a Bonaza to take a lawyer to a trial, then left seat a hot-shot pressurized piston twin for the president of the local trucking company to New York the next day. Knowledge of lots of different airplanes with different performance and different feel.

    Bring in Flight simulator games...no not quite real, but they fly close to real numbers...

    Wow, this 172 feels very different, but hey, practice a bit and dang, I can land it.

    Wow, this 737 feels very different...no 1 mile final here....gimme 5! I really need to stay ahead of this thing and keep it stable...cool hands, good eyes...pretty soon, successful landings.

    Next up...a 747...WOW this thing IS big...WOW...you know, I really DO need a 15 mile (Ok, 20 mile) final (Just like Bobby says I do)....I really really need to stay ahead of this thing and have really really cool hands and really really good eye work to keep it stable.

    Watch the airspeed....watch the vertical speed...watch everything...stay ahead of the damn thing...and guess what...it lands.

    Now jump to Gabriel who did indeed land a 737 'real simulator' on his first try (still jealous of the SOB).

    It's important to note that some of the actual, real world feelings are missing from simulators (even the 'real ones')...conversely, I think experienced pilots have some fairly hard eye to arm wiring, where the buttocks contribution may be secondary.

    Special skill you got Bobby, but not sure how special. (Actually, the whole package is indeed special...Still...airspeed, attitude, yoke, power levers, yada yada...the fundamentals are the same...172tommycub or 74xyz.)

    I will offer disclaimers- you could get a steak dinner out of the deal. Years ago, there was another thread on another forum- someone with not-so-good English, asked if a dummy could land an airliner...Back then, I kind of thought I could do it.

    BUT, lo and behold, in Flying Magazine was an accident where a high-hour airline pilot rented a 182...crossed the threshold at 100 knots...floated...floated...bounced....floated....ran off the end and flipped it.

    Fascinating lesson: It is indeed bad practice to hop in an aircraft for which you are not familiar nor "current"...doesn't matter if you are a hot-shot, zillion hour ATP...and maybe the MSFS jock in row 23 won't be able to save the day after fish poisoning either...maybe Gabe and I will crash your simulator...

    Nevertheless, what are the rules here?...do we get some practice runs? Any hints on good power settings, to have the right speed on final? Easy weather or nasty gusty? CAVU or restricted visibility. Is the runway 200 by 12,000 ft? or 100 by 7000 ft?

    And, to repeat from above, I (and Gabe) have no hope of legally navigating your 747 to a New York airport unless we DO get a ton of type-specific rehearsal with the FMS and autoplot....without that, we would have a lot of people pissed at us.

    I'm not as confident as Gabe, but damn, he did land that 737 simulator cold, so it's worth it to try.

    I think you might have missed the part about... "I will bet you with no automation, and no magenta line,no glide slope and no localizer,a handful of yoke and thrust levers, you won't make the field. A visual approach in a 600,000 pound airplane is not your Tomahawk".

  3. #103
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I think you might have missed the part about... "I will bet you with no automation, and no magenta line,no glide slope and no localizer,a handful of yoke and thrust levers, you won't make the field. A visual approach in a 600,000 pound airplane is not your Tomahawk".
    No, actually I read that, and recognized that it could be a challenge. But I also read where you'd have us all configured and 'on course 20 miles out'.

    Now, how about the part where I said:
    What are the rules here?...do we get some practice runs? Any hints on good power settings, to have the right speed on final? Easy weather or nasty gusty? CAVU or restricted visibility. Is the runway 200 by 12,000 ft? or 100 by 7000 ft?
    But none of that other stuff matters huh?

    By the way...I have my doubts about my mental abilities, but my hands are more than big enough for your grand yoke and power levers.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    No, actually I read that, and recognized that it could be a challenge. But I also read where you'd have us all configured and 'on course 20 miles out'.

    Now, how about the part where I said:

    But none of that other stuff matters huh?

    You want me to fly right seat and talk you through the whole thing too?

  5. #105
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    You want me to fly right seat and talk you through the whole thing too?
    We do have reading comprehension issues, don't we? I listed a few important items and that was not one of them.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    We do have reading comprehension issues, don't we? I listed a few important items and that was not one of them.
    No I still read just fine, you said "What are the rules here?...do we get some practice runs? Any hints on good power settings, to have the right speed on final? Easy weather or nasty gusty? CAVU or restricted visibility. Is the runway 200 by 12,000 ft? or 100 by 7000 ft?"

    Nope, I will give you the aircraft at 5000' 20 miles out and let her rip!

  7. #107
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    No I still read just fine, you said "What are the rules here?...do we get some practice runs? Any hints on good power settings, to have the right speed on final? Easy weather or nasty gusty? CAVU or restricted visibility. Is the runway 200 by 12,000 ft? or 100 by 7000 ft?"

    Nope, I will give you the aircraft at 5000' 20 miles out and let her rip!
    So, I've asked three times for winds and visibility (and some runway details). But, I guess those have no bearing. Since you are a 40,000 hour pilot, I guess you could explain why I'm always hearing that on ATIS and tower frequencies. Indeed, if it's hard IMC and I don't get the stuff you listed, and you can dial up the former Kai tek airport, I may not 'make the field'.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    So, I've asked three times for winds and visibility (and some runway details). But, I guess those have no bearing. Since you are a 40,000 hour pilot, I guess you could explain why I'm always hearing that on ATIS and tower frequencies. Indeed, if it's hard IMC and I don't get the stuff you listed, and you can dial up the former Kai tek airport, I may not 'make the field'.

    So sorry, I didn't realize I was required to give you a full briefing.... Miami International Airport Information Echo, at time 0055 Zulu, Winds 360 at 15, Visibility more than 10 miles, ILS Inoperative All Runways, No Radar Services Available, Landing and Departing Runway 8L, 8R and 9, Advise Controller on Initial Contact that you have information Echo.


    Feel better now? This is what we get in the sim for visual approaches. Day or night (your choice) 15 knot crosswind and visibility unlimited. You get on that MSFS and set er up, and let me know when you are ready. And use 9 it's the real long one!

  9. #109
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    So sorry, I didn't realize I was required to give you a full briefing.... Miami International Airport Information Echo, at time 0055 Zulu, Winds 360 at 15, Visibility more than 10 miles, ILS Inoperative All Runways, No Radar Services Available, Landing and Departing Runway 8L, 8R and 9, Advise Controller on Initial Contact that you have information Echo.


    Feel better now? This is what we get in the sim for visual approaches. Day or night (your choice) 15 knot crosswind and visibility unlimited. You get on that MSFS and set er up, and let me know when you are ready. And use 9 it's the real long one!
    Piece of cake. I'll take 8R. Given the crosswind, I prefer wider over longer

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Piece of cake. I'll take 8R. Given the crosswind, I prefer wider over longer
    I'd suggest Rwy 30.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    I'd suggest Rwy 30.
    Closed for rubber removal!

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    I'd suggest Rwy 30.
    Great. Now the x-wind component will be 13kts instead of 15 and I will be in a conflicting path with all other planes arriving and departing.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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  13. #113
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    So sorry, I didn't realize I was required to give you a full briefing....
    Thank you. I feel that I have adequate knowledge to attempt the landing, and that maybe you are not making special efforts to ensure failure. My confidence does not equal Gabriel's but I would like to give it a try. The lack of an ILS sounds like fun...hopefully 3BS will go easy on his 'dive and pull up' tendencies...it's a big plane...probably good to 'keep ahead of it'.

    Based on the occasional opportunity to eaves drop on professional pilots doing briefings, it is interesting that you call that a full briefing. But, I'm just a dumbass outsider, so I guess that's a full briefing.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  14. #114
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    ***get on that MSFS and set er up***
    The saddest thing I ever did on MSFS was an ILS to "18C" at DFW.

    I programmed in some wind layers close to the ground...35 knots headwind (I think it started about 800 ft AGL...then a 35 knot tailwind (starting at 400 ft AGL).

    Couldn't find an L-1011, but used a DC-10.

    I knew I was going to see some speed loss, but what was exceptionally sad was when I touched down- kind of gently- about 1000 ft short of the runway.

    MSFS does lack realism...there was no car to shut down engine #1 and thus, no hard left turn response towards water tanks.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  15. #115
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    ***Runway 8L, 8R and 9, Advise Controller on Initial Contact that you have information Echo.***
    Given my love of ironing and Murphy's law with this particular thread, I'll probably be landing on a damn taxiway.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    The saddest thing I ever did on MSFS was an ILS to "18C" at DFW.
    That's even sadder considering there IS no 18C at DFW.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Great. Now the x-wind component will be 13kts instead of 15 and I will be in a conflicting path with all other planes arriving and departing.
    Considering they routinely use Rwy 12 when other runways are in use also, I have a feeling you'll be fine in regards to "conflicting traffic"...

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    That's even sadder considering there IS no 18C at DFW.
    Noted. @%#%~!
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  19. #119
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I am aware of CWS in the 737. I believe that it is the only type that has it. I don't like it, pilots mostly don't like it (and mostly don't use it) and it has caused* some fatal accidents when pilots thought that they were actually flying the plane "as usual" with the yokes.

    I would be ok to have a separate control for a sort of "attitude hold" mode, let's say something like the Sperry autopilot in the DC-3, except with some built-in protections.

    Note that, after some accidents and incidents, Boeing eliminated the possibility of entering CWS mode just by manipulating the control wheel while in AP. Now you have only one method to enter CWS, which is by selecting that mode. If you manipulate the controls while in AP (but not in CWS), do it smoothly enough and nothing will happen, do it hard enough and the AP will disconnect and you have full manual control. That's a start.

    * The CWS itself didn't cause the accidents, of course. As always, we had someone screwing up in the middle.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=49f13f56&opt=0
    http://avherald.com/h?article=4419c56e/0002&opt=0
    I just read the link about First Air and also noticed your comment about CWS breakout force. This is actually a great example of what I'm trying to address. In the Yellowknife accident, we see a pilot lose his situational awareness because the automation did something stealthy he was not expecting (reverted to HDG HOLD from ILS capture due to control movement). Was he aware of this danger? In your comment, you are probably referring to a newer version of CWS because on the NG's I am familiar with breakout force (+/-40lbs) will result in CWS activation, not AP disconnect. But some NG's have this feature deactivated or removed, where doing this would simply hand you the plane. Mistaking full manual flight for CWS seems like one of those potentially fatal pitfalls, especially if you are doing this down low. So in this case you would even have to know the SUBTYPE you are flying to have the correct expectations.

  20. #120
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    I believe that this feature (activation of CWS by breakout force) was removed from the logic by Boeing via a software update that I guess was implemented fleet-wide.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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