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Thread: Very good 737 upset recovery successfully performed

  1. #1
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Default Very good 737 upset recovery successfully performed

    Very bad that they got into the upset in the first place.

    Go around gone wrong.

    When you see airspeeds in the order of 60kts, loss of 1000 ft in altitude, wing drops past 90 deg of bank, you know it could have ended much much worse.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4b01e302&opt=0
    Last edited by Gabriel; 10-26-2017 at 06:33 PM. Reason: missing zero

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Av Herald
    ...the upset began when the pitch angle reached 45 degrees nose up, a right bank angle of 33 degrees developed followed by 34 degrees left bank, the pitch angle reduced to 30 degrees nose up, the aircraft rolled rapidly to 96 degrees right bank consistent with the right hand wing having stalled with the airspeed having reduced to 60 KIAS, pitch dropped to 14 degrees nose down, aircraft rolled to a left bank 45 degrees, speed recovered to 150 KIAS and the aircraft recovered from stall after losing a total of 1000 feet of height.

    Wrong
    .

    I WANT to say that the upset began when the plane PASSED 30 degrees nose up.

    BUT

    Even that is wrong.

    The upset began somewhat before that...the upset began when the pilots (apparently) stopped monitoring pitch...

    I will try not_to get into a 3BS- or Gabby-rant.

    Bring on the underslung engines and somatographic effects, and whether you have one or two autopilots and type-specific checklists...fine...I get that...but why not watch attitude and airspeed REGARDLESS OF EVERYTHING, INCLUDING AIRPLANE TYPE!

    -Push stick forward in a measured fashion (peek at instruments again)
    -Click-Clack Paddywhack, give a man-a-plane, this old man went rolling home.
    -Even jerk the throttles back for a sec if you have to

    Communicate, Navigate...what's that third most important thing?


    ON ANOTHER NOTE...I guess we MAY be seeing what happened in that other 737 crash in Russia not too long ago. I suppose we could call for a type-specific checklist item to watch the pitch, but damn if a 172 won't go out of control (and also lose airspeed on power up) if you don't watch attitude.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    -Click-Clack Paddywhack, give a man-a-plane, this old man went rolling home.
    This is where you've got it wrong... the goal is to fly home.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    loss of 100ft in altitude
    Psst... that's 1,000 feet. To roll an aircraft like that 90 degrees and only lose 100 feet you'd have to be the ISGPOTM.

    I don't read Russian but it doesn't look to me like those FDR graphs show engine parameters or the position of the throttles. I'm wondering if this could be another of those situations where the pilots expected automation to advance the throttles for the go-around and that didn't happen.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
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    Pilot.....definition. A person who flys an aeroplane.

    So....Why do so many “pilots” hand over the flying role to a box of electronics ?

    ....Especially when the shit is about to hit the fan !
    Last edited by brianw999; 10-26-2017 at 03:14 PM.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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    Because their employer requires them to!
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Psst... that's 1,000 feet. To roll an aircraft like that 90 degrees and only lose 100 feet you'd have to be the ISGPOTM.

    I don't read Russian.
    Komrade elawsky, Perhaps report Komrade Gabrielsky was referencing was using much more excellent unit of measure called meters, invented by great Russian scientists, and lovingly adopted by the collective people at the suggestion of central politbureau? 100 glorious meters is not too different from 1000 inferior American feet...and maybe Komrade Gabriel mis-speak and say feet...or not.

    (By the way, I believe it is proper grammar to bold ISGPOTM. )
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    This is where you've got it wrong... the goal is to fly home.
    Click-Clack paddywhack, give a pilot a plane, this old non-FBW-steam-gauge-airliner-fundamental-remembering man successfully flew home.

    How's that?

    Yes it's a nursery rhyme.

    What nursery rhyme did Evan's Mom sing? Click clack paddy-whack, open up the QRH, hope the automation doesn't make you moan what's it doing now?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    ....Especially when the shit is about to hit the fan !
    I reviewed the report, and did not see any mention of a lavatory holding tank detaching and passing close in front of an engine. [don't shoot]
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    So....Why do so many “pilots” hand over the flying role to a box of electronics ?
    Because a box of electronics does not pitch up to 45 degrees nose up, bank right to 33 degrees followed by 34 degrees left bank, then reduce pitch to 30 degrees nose up, roll the aircraft rapidly to 96 degrees right bank in a stall with the airspeed having reduced to 60 KIAS.

    I mean, the box of electronics must have been doing this the whole time:


    It's times like this when you feel sorry for the aircraft.

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    Oh yeah, because electronics (and electromechanical bits and hydraulic bits and mechanical bits, all of which usually are connected together to create an autoflight system) never fail.

    Yes, a properly functioning electronic/electrical/hydraulic/mechanical system will not do that. Also a properly functioning pilot will not do that.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Because a box of electronics does not pitch up to 45 degrees nose up, bank right to 33 degrees followed by 34 degrees left bank, then reduce pitch to 30 degrees nose up, roll the aircraft rapidly to 96 degrees right bank in a stall with the airspeed having reduced to 60 KIAS.

    I mean, the box of electronics must have been doing this the whole time:


    It's times like this when you feel sorry for the aircraft.
    I seem to recall quite the discussion that you better have TWO DISCRETE SETS of all that electronic wizardry to do a go-around...Gabbie and I were perplexed as we didn't think it would be all that hard to shove the coal levers forward and maintain attitude and airspeed like stupid-but-trained humans are supposed be ABLE TO DO at ANY time and AT LEAST OVERSEE ALL of the time...(or does that not apply to this particular sub-model?).

    Anyway- there you have it, right in your procedure list that the electronic wizardry has some limitations.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Because a box of electronics does not pitch up to 45 degrees nose up, bank right to 33 degrees followed by 34 degrees left bank, then reduce pitch to 30 degrees nose up, roll the aircraft rapidly to 96 degrees right bank in a stall with the airspeed having reduced to 60 KIAS.

    I mean, the box of electronics must have been doing this the whole time...
    Have we taken the big wheel ride yet, to understand steering input reversals? Because, I am betting a steak dinner AND a case of beer that the pilots did not actively pull up to 45 degrees nor command a 33 and 34 degree bank...The plane did a lot of that based on some crazy stuff called fundamental aerodynamics.

    I do fault the pilots for not paying attention while the steep climb developed and the speed decayed, but I guess they were too busy wondering about the 236A vs. the 200 procedures to watch the attitude indicator...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Because, I am betting a steak dinner AND a case of beer that the pilots did not actively pull up to 45 degrees n or command a 33 and 34 degree bank...
    Or if they did, it was preceded by the phrase "watch this" (or its Russian equivalent).
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Or if they did, it was preceded by the phrase "watch this" (or its Russian equivalent).
    Indeed!
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Man I just flew UT Air on a 735 TXL-VKO-TXL. Hahah. My flight went smooth, but not doing that again. Also the inflight service consists of giving you a small paper pepsi cup half full of water about an hour into the flight. That's it.

    Lovely views of Moscow's fall colors though:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    Oh yeah, because electronics (and electromechanical bits and hydraulic bits and mechanical bits, all of which usually are connected together to create an autoflight system) never fail. :roll
    Sure, they fail sometimes, but when they fail they don't stooge things up like this. They either hand things off to the other electronic box or they hand things over to the pilots, where all the stoogery happens.

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Komrade elawsky, Perhaps report Komrade Gabrielsky was referencing was using much more excellent unit of measure called meters, invented by great Russian scientists, and lovingly adopted by the collective people at the suggestion of central politbureau? 100 glorious meters is not too different from 1000 inferior American feet...and maybe Komrade Gabriel mis-speak and say feet...or not.

    (By the way, I believe it is proper grammar to bold ISGPOTM. )
    I don't know the glorious Russian metroski, but 100 proper mètres du le Système International d'Unités are about 330 ft, not 1000.
    (And you are right, I meant 1000 ft and I fixed it)

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
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    Proper grammar would be to use the words that make up the acronym ISGPOTM/ISGPOTM.

    Then everyone would know what you are talking about.

    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    Proper grammar would be to use the words that make up the acronym ISGPOTM/ISGPOTM.

    Then everyone would know what you are talking about.

    Nain, the right acronym would be U, for der Unglaublichesupergenedesmileniumspilot.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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