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Thread: Sad loss of Roy Halladay

  1. #1
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    Default Sad loss of Roy Halladay

    http://abc7news.com/sports/halladay-...crash/2616240/

    Flying an Icon A-5 over the Gulf of Mexico. RIP.

    Circumstances of crash not yet clear. Announcement of pilot error seems a little premature, would be helpful to see some corroboration together with more info on how that determination was reached.

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    Optional but apparently required on US-registered models...
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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Good low-time VFR pilots don't go VFR-over-the-top in an airplane that doesn't even have an artificial horizon.
    Disclaimer: I don't know if that is exactly what we see in the video and I of course have no clue about the cause of the crash.

    http://abc7news.com/sports/former-ph...crash/2614235/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Good low-time VFR pilots don't go VFR-over-the-top in an airplane that doesn't even have an artificial horizon.
    Conversely:

    Wealthy, competitive, type-A personalities have sometimes shown a propensity to get in over their head with high $ aircraft and be somewhat less cautious regarding fundamental and procedural rules.
    (Disclaimer noted and largely copied for this comment)
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    BRS
    Are you ITS acting as a sock puppet?
    (Or Melissa?)
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Good low-time VFR pilots don't go VFR-over-the-top in an airplane that doesn't even have an artificial horizon.
    Disclaimer: I don't know if that is exactly what we see in the video and I of course have no clue about the cause of the crash.

    http://abc7news.com/sports/former-ph...crash/2614235/
    It does have an artificial horizon. And a bank indicator. All you need is a Sport Pilots License to fly it (brace yourself for more carnage) but it seems to accomodate IFR requirements for more advanced pilots.

    Anyway, if it doesn't turn out to be widow-maker, I want one.

    Very sad news though. I wonder if these SPL aircraft are beginning to cross a dangerous line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    ***All you need is a Sport Pilots License to fly it (brace yourself for more carnage)***
    A lot of stats say that out sight seeing and burger running within 50 miles (or something like that) from your home airport is actually a good bit safer than going on 200 mile trips in heavier planes requiring an actual private license.

    While I always favor more knowledge, the stats represent genuine risk exposure (with some parallels to your BRS).
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It does have an artificial horizon. And a bank indicator.
    I believe the artificial horizon is optional. And what the heck is a bank indicator?

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    Apparently, this is a video of some "show-boating", prior to the plane hitting the water, as well as shot of the wreckage as witnesses come upon it.


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    Basically the same video that above, but with the voice of the person recording. I am ready to remove the disclaimer now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I believe the artificial horizon is optional. And what the heck is a bank indicator?
    It has something on the center display that looks like a turn and bank indicator (turn and slip if you prefer) except that it seems to lack to "ball" aspect. So I don't know what you call it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It has something on the center display that looks like a turn and bank indicator (turn and slip if you prefer) except that it seems to lack to "ball" aspect. So I don't know what you call it.
    To hell with the instrumentation and BRS- it is apparently equipped with a pilot-monitoring camera which the manufacturer claims 'owenership and all rights' to, along with a "you cannot sue the manufacturer" clause in the purchase agreement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICON_A5

    I went to Wikipedia to see if this thing is certified for aerobatic type stuff (not that it has direct relevance...there is that fundamental rule to not be doing too much extreme attitude nor relentless pull up stuff without a healthy altitude buffer).
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It has something on the center display that looks like a turn and bank indicator (turn and slip if you prefer) except that it seems to lack to "ball" aspect. So I don't know what you call it.
    There is no turn and bank indicator, no matter what I prefer. You have the turn and slip indicator and the turn coordinator, which are very sililar instruments although they don't indicate exactly the same thing. Notably, none of them indicates "bank" (although the turn coordinator indicates a combination of bank rate and turn rate).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_and_slip_indicator

    And I don't see anything in the Icon panel that would be similar to that. It seems that the ones equiped with the artificail horizon have a digital representation of the ball.
    https://www.ainonline.com/sites/defa...amp=1457958109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    There is no turn and bank indicator, no matter what I prefer. You have the turn and slip indicator and the turn coordinator, which are very sililar instruments although they don't indicate exactly the same thing. Notably, none of them indicates "bank" (although the turn coordinator indicates a combination of bank rate and turn rate).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_and_slip_indicator


    Very first line of your Wikipedia link:

    In aviation, the turn and slip indicator (T/S, a.k.a. turn and bank indicator)
    I know your are one for accuracy in terms, but you also need to discover the world of colloquialisms. When people say 'turn and bank indicator', I'm guessing you know what they mean.

    And I don't see anything in the Icon panel that would be similar to that. It seems that the ones equiped with the artificail horizon have a digital representation of the ball.
    https://www.ainonline.com/sites/defa...amp=1457958109[/QUOTE]

    Have a look at the photo. There is something similar to that. I think there may be enough instrumentation here for IFR. Would you agree?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    ***I think there may be enough instrumentation here for IFR.***
    1. It appears that this happened in VMC...can we stop beating instruments to death (after my #2 below)

    2. Maybe Gabie is being too technical, but you are being sloppy on this thread. While the plane has some instruments that can help you fly without visual cues vs. certified for IFR are another area of nit-pickiness. I am pretty sure that my 150 YouTube from a couple days ago had a nice set of instruments that could support all sorts of IMC flight, but it was not an IFR aircraft.

    Not sure what to say on turn & bank...yeah, it TECHNICALLY does not indicate bank and it can indicate a turn with no bank at all whatsoever...

    CONVERSELY...though I found it to be damn useful when practicing instrument flying with a pretend failed vacuum pump...and to provide a highly accurate way to manage bank.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Optional but apparently required on US-registered models...
    This panel indicates the aircraft has a parachute. However for a parachute to be beneficial the aircraft would need to have sufficient altitude for the parachute to deploy, inflate, and decelerate the aircraft prior to surface impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    [/URL]
    Very first line of your Wikipedia link:
    I know your are one for accuracy in terms, but you also need to discover the world of colloquialisms. When people say 'turn and bank indicator', I'm guessing you know what they mean.
    To be honest, I've heard people calling them turn coordinator, slip and turn, turn indicator, and stick-and-ball, all of these names interchangeably used for both instruments although they are not exactly the same, but never turn and bank indicator. And while, yes, I would guess what they mean: 1) I would highly discourage the use of this misleading name, because this instruments provide no bank information and 2) in your first post (where I asked what the heck) you said "bank indicator" and no, I would not guess that they mean a turn coordinator, in the same way that I would not guess that someone means thermometer if they say manometer.

    Have a look at the photo. There is something similar to that. I think there may be enough instrumentation here for IFR. Would you agree?
    If you meant the digital "panel" in the center console, that is GPS information. Groundspeed, ground track, rate of change of ground track (what you said is similar to a turn coordinator), GPS altitude, and rate of change of GPS altitude. I will you good luck flying IMC with that, because you will need it to keep the plane upside down for more than 15 seconds. Now, combining that with the artificial horizon and digital representation of the ball in the middle of the main instrument panel, I agree that you have enough to survive in IMC (if you've got what it takes other than hardware), but not to go and fly in IMC. You don't have backup for the attitude indicator (the GPS-simulated turn coordinator is nowhere good enough). You don't have navaid other than GPS. And all is electric with single electrical system, single alternator and single battery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    If you meant the digital "panel" in the center console, that is GPS information. Groundspeed, ground track, rate of change of ground track (what you said is similar to a turn coordinator), GPS altitude, and rate of change of GPS altitude. I will you good luck flying IMC with that, because you will need it to keep the plane upside down for more than 15 seconds. Now, combining that with the artificial horizon and digital representation of the ball in the middle of the main instrument panel, I agree that you have enough to survive in IMC (if you've got what it takes other than hardware), but not to go and fly in IMC. You don't have backup for the attitude indicator (the GPS-simulated turn coordinator is nowhere good enough). You don't have navaid other than GPS. And all is electric with single electrical system, single alternator and single battery.
    The mystery instrument is a turn rate indicator. My sincerest apologies for any confusion this may have caused.

    I was responding to your comment that "Good low-time VFR pilots don't go VFR-over-the-top in an airplane that doesn't even have an artificial horizon."

    Well, I'm sure that is true, but if he was instrument-rated I think this aircraft seems to have what it needs to do that. Not only is there a dedicated artificial horizon, the Garmin unit has a full PFD display option with 3D "vision" as well as an HSI with some VNAV aspect. It also has a battery that is good for about three hours, so there's your back-up. True, if you lost GPS in IMC I guess you would be lost and I'm not suggesting this thing is equipped for anything more than brief IMC, but I think you could safely punch through a low cloud layer. Anyway, ceiling, if I read that right, is limited to around 2,000' AGL and range and cruise speed are both ill-suited for cross-country itineraries. I'm guessing most owners will never use more than 5% of that Garmin unit's capabilities.

    But I suppose what we should be focusing on here is the plane's performance in steep turns when half the wingspan exceeds the total altitude... I think this thing is going to encourage a lot of rodeo airmanship at very low altitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    But I suppose what we should be focusing on here is the plane's performance in steep turns when half the wingspan exceeds the total altitude... I think this thing is going to encourage a lot of rodeo airmanship at very low altitude.
    Why?

    And where I'm coming from is that someone out playing around and getting too out of whack with too little altitude can (and has) happen(ed) with a ride range of airplanes.

    What trend and mechanism are you extrapolating from an n=1 dataset that says the is plane encourages rodeo airmanship any more than someone out circling the girlfriend's house in a 150?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Why?

    And where I'm coming from is that someone out playing around and getting too out of whack with too little altitude can (and has) happen(ed) with a ride range of airplanes.

    What trend and mechanism are you extrapolating from an n=1 dataset that says the is plane encourages rodeo airmanship any more than someone out circling the girlfriends house in a 150?
    '

    Approachability. This plane is designed to be very un-150-like in terms of learning curve. The cockpit is not at all intimidating. It's basically a flying jetski/Ford Mustang. I'm afraid it will attract a lot of cowboys of the non-airmanship variety. And a SPL can be had with 20 hours total time (10 cycles, 5 hours solo).

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