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Thread: Aircraft using multiple resources to avoid a severe thunderstorm...

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Default Aircraft using multiple resources to avoid a severe thunderstorm...

    I am sure that onboard radar, ATC, Mark IV 400-700 nm quadruple passive radar and dual low-silicon FMS were all in use...and indeed, the heavy rainshaft was avoided...

    Ok, this is a complicated post, but there has always seemed to be a lot of dichotomies and inconsistencies in storm avoidance.

    In this youtube, we see a SW 737 fly essentially next to a tornado. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsACwJkp0CI I am pretty sure this was a 'warned storm' when the tornado formed.

    I often razz Boing Bobby: He rather boldly proclaims that he gives thunderstorms a wide safety berth. I have countered that 'the industry' often seems to give storms relatively little berth.

    There are important caveats: Guys will use their real-time on-board radar to find reasonable holes- but this incident sort of supports the, 'hey, it's not raining, who cares if the clouds are ugly, who cares if there’s tornado warnings and who cares what shade of purple is in the core of the storm...I'll just fly right at this genuinely nasty looking wall cloud and associated other dark, ominous clouds...'

    As a former resident of Useless, TX, I also have repeatedly mentioned that I remember the afternoon of the Delta 191 crash. It was a good old fashioned afternoon towering cumulus...NOT a squall line/rotating/supercell mega storm- at least not a few minutes before they encountered it...it's always been my belief that they saw this as a mundane penetration instead of the 'worst-ever-recorded' wind shear.

    Finally- what is the problem with the tornado-warning department being able to talk to control towers? At DFW, the NWS was issuing stuff for the general public, but the tower was disseminating that he visually saw a shower on final. What the hell happened here in Flyover...Southwest xxx, fly runway heading, cleared for takeoff, never mind the rotating wall cloud, tornado-warned supercell 6 miles off the departure end of runway 30L. (I'm embellishing, but...) Absolutely the weather service communicates with ATC, but again and again, you see storm warnings and aviation operations that appear oblivious to each other- not saying that airplanes need to know about tornado warnings...but then again, they sort of do need to know.

    Of course, there's gentle thunderstorms (don't tell Bobby that) and the herd mentality if everyone else is getting through with mundane turbulence...AND I know there are diversions and holds...just saying it's not hard to find someone getting close and personal to nasty Cb's.

    I still argue: Yeah, we checked the weather, BUT, it's time to depart (or we're on approach)...we got a big, strong, powerful plane...full ahead!...
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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    I said the word "dichotomy". On stormy days on flightaware, I have also watched some planes go hundreds of miles out of the way while other planes shoot through much more direct gaps. (With the acknowledgement that while the radar depiction lacks extreme detail- you are still seeing one plane avoiding what looks like an ok gap while another goes through the ok-looking gap.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    I am sure that onboard radar, ATC, Mark IV 400-700 nm quadruple passive radar and dual low-silicon FMS were all in use...and indeed, the heavy rainshaft was avoided...

    Ok, this is a complicated post, but there has always seemed to be a lot of dichotomies and inconsistencies in storm avoidance.

    In this youtube, we see a SW 737 fly essentially next to a tornado. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsACwJkp0CI I am pretty sure this was a 'warned storm' when the tornado formed.

    I often razz Boing Bobby: He rather boldly proclaims that he gives thunderstorms a wide safety berth. I have countered that 'the industry' often seems to give storms relatively little berth.

    There are important caveats: Guys will use their real-time on-board radar to find reasonable holes- but this incident sort of supports the, 'hey, it's not raining, who cares if the clouds are ugly, who cares if there’s tornado warnings and who cares what shade of purple is in the core of the storm...I'll just fly right at this genuinely nasty looking wall cloud and associated other dark, ominous clouds...'

    As a former resident of Useless, TX, I also have repeatedly mentioned that I remember the afternoon of the Delta 191 crash. It was a good old fashioned afternoon towering cumulus...NOT a squall line/rotating/supercell mega storm- at least not a few minutes before they encountered it...it's always been my belief that they saw this as a mundane penetration instead of the 'worst-ever-recorded' wind shear.

    Finally- what is the problem with the tornado-warning department being able to talk to control towers? At DFW, the NWS was issuing stuff for the general public, but the tower was disseminating that he visually saw a shower on final. What the hell happened here in Flyover...Southwest xxx, fly runway heading, cleared for takeoff, never mind the rotating wall cloud, tornado-warned supercell 6 miles off the departure end of runway 30L. (I'm embellishing, but...) Absolutely the weather service communicates with ATC, but again and again, you see storm warnings and aviation operations that appear oblivious to each other- not saying that airplanes need to know about tornado warnings...but then again, they sort of do need to know.

    Of course, there's gentle thunderstorms (don't tell Bobby that) and the herd mentality if everyone else is getting through with mundane turbulence...AND I know there are diversions and holds...just saying it's not hard to find someone getting close and personal to nasty Cb's.

    I still argue: Yeah, we checked the weather, BUT, it's time to depart (or we're on approach)...we got a big, strong, powerful plane...full ahead!...

    I am sure you have heard this before? "There are old pilot's and there are bold pilot's, but no old bold pilot's.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I am sure you have heard this before? "There are old pilot's and there are bold pilot's, but no old bold pilot's.
    The statement is true.

    But it falls short of answering why in the hell a commercial 737 in the USA flies right next to a tornado...

    Sorry, but it bugs the crap out of me that a guy would fly right by a tornado...I can see how it happened- the radar showed no precip...but it seems to be a very narrow, non-robust procedure- and what in the heck was ATC doing sending the guy that way- I am THINKING (pure parlour talk) that a hard left turn after departure would have given him weather clearance and could have been done.

    Again- I don't want to talk about your personal thoughts and procedures nor one-liners (even truthful ones)...and we're talking about the paying flying public and not Halliday messing around in his sport plane...not flaming at you personally, but yes, am dissatisfied with your response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I am sure you have heard this before? "There are old pilot's and there are bold pilot's, but no old bold pilot's.
    Oh, but there are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Oh, but there are.
    I have the same response for both you and 3WE and it is what got me through a 47 year aviation carear without any incidents or accidents: Avoid, and respect. They are the two exact words that have gotten me by 50+ years of spearfishing in the Bahamas most of my life with sharks in the water.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I have the same response for both you and 3WE and it is what got me through a 47 year aviation carear without any incidents or accidents: Avoid, and respect. They are the two exact words that have gotten me by 50+ years of spearfishing in the Bahamas most of my life with sharks in the water.

    Then you didn't read my post. Nor Evan's for that matter. And we're not dismissing or arguing against what you are saying...instead, you're dismissing what we're saying. Is it because you believe you are too good to read our stuff?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Then you didn't read my post. Nor Evan's for that matter. And we're not dismissing or arguing against what you are saying...instead, you're dismissing what we're saying. Is it because you believe you are too good to read our stuff?
    Where is that coming from? I did nothing but agree with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Then you didn't read my post. Nor Evan's for that matter. And we're not dismissing or arguing against what you are saying...instead, you're dismissing what we're saying. Is it because you believe you are too good to read our stuff?
    What I am hearing is that he agrees. The reality is that bold often works... until it doesn't. The industry is bold, until it goes wrong once in a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
    What I am hearing is that he agrees. The reality is that bold often works... until it doesn't. The industry is bold, until it goes wrong once in a while.
    Yes.

    BUT

    This incident is kinda sorta extreme and maybe a tad dangerous.

    AND

    Is kinda sorta just about almost 100% avoidable.


    Bobby probably would steer clear. However, the rest of us paying-self-loading-freight are being put at a risk that I call pretty damn unnecessary. (No planes are not routinely doing tornado fly by's, but I still say that thunderstorm encounters are too frequent and normal operations fall way way way short of Bobby's standards, and that they should be beefed up and actually followed (I know what's in the books- and it was NOT demonstrated in my youtube))

    I would like to hear him state that, Yeah, that was rather bad and the pilots and ATC should be subjected to over-the-top physical punishment- and somehow engage in what I see as an issue.

    Bobby's weather avoidance rules are not the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Yes.

    BUT

    This incident is kinda sorta extreme and maybe a tad dangerous.

    AND

    Is kinda sorta just about almost 100% avoidable.


    Bobby probably would steer clear. However, the rest of us paying-self-loading-freight are being put at a risk that I call pretty damn unnecessary. (No planes are not routinely doing tornado fly by's, but I still say that thunderstorm encounters are too frequent and normal operations fall way way way short of Bobby's standards, and that they should be beefed up and actually followed (I know what's in the books- and it was NOT demonstrated in my youtube))

    I would like to hear him state that, Yeah, that was rather bad and the pilots and ATC should be subjected to over-the-top physical punishment- and somehow engage in what I see as an issue.

    Bobby's weather avoidance rules are not the issue.

    It would be irresponsible to judge the actions of ATC and pilots without knowing the policies and procedures and having the exact data that everyone had access to at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
    It would be irresponsible to judge the actions of ATC and pilots without knowing the policies and procedures and having the exact data that everyone had access to at the time.
    Bullcrap!

    The NWS radar is ~15 miles to the Southwest, the airplane radar is right in the nose, and the location of the video is 6 miles right down the extended centerline of the runway on the normal South/West departure route. I can't tell you exactly where the phones are at the NWS and the control tower, but they are nevertheless, handy.

    A deliberate decision was made to takeoff and fly in very close proximity of a strong thunderstorm when the option of waiting on the ground was available.

    Sorry, but clear data were available in spite of your attempt to play the 'you weren't there' card.

    Not only that- but in fact I "was there" roughly 5 miles to the south, tracking the storms myself for 30+ minutes, noting how the storm was near the centerline of the primary runways and their approach/departure paths...and noting that rotation was evident...and it was not a surprise to hear that an actual tornado formed.

    But whatever...cleared for takeoff power set 80 knots cross check V1 Rotate Positive Rate Gear up contact departure...
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Bullcrap!

    The NWS radar is ~15 miles to the Southwest, the airplane radar is right in the nose, and the location of the video is 6 miles right down the extended centerline of the runway on the normal South/West departure route. I can't tell you exactly where the phones are at the NWS and the control tower, but they are nevertheless, handy.

    A deliberate decision was made to takeoff and fly in very close proximity of a strong thunderstorm when the option of waiting on the ground was available.

    ..........

    But whatever...cleared for takeoff power set 80 knots cross check V1 Rotate Positive Rate Gear up contact departure...
    ....and then add “Hey, why are we dropping like a whores knickers at a men only picnic while we are at takeoff power and configuration ?”

    Guess I’m agreeing with both you AND Bobby !
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    ....and then add “Hey, why are we dropping like a whores knickers at a men only picnic while we are at takeoff power and configuration ?”

    Guess I’m agreeing with both you AND Bobby !
    Thank you!

    And fortunately, Tornadoes tend to be 'immediately' associated with updrafts- and there's too many non PC juxtapositions I can come up with for your analogy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Where is that coming from? I did nothing but agree with you.
    Look man, I've always appreciated that you seem to have more cautious standards regarding weather.

    ...BUT...I'm not sure I've ever seen you say, "Yeah, that does look bad", or "Yeah, I know guys and situations where they push things more than what they really should", or maybe even- "Yeah, it's bad but there's just no way to regulate it"...

    That's the source of my razz...sort of a refusal to discuss, instead, short, rather useless pontifications...make sense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Thank you!

    And fortunately, Tornadoes tend to be 'immediately' associated with updrafts- and there's too many non PC juxtapositions I can come up with for your analogy.
    Are you sure that you like to talk to a man who mentions the words 'men only picnic' in a forum that strictly is AVIATION ONLY?!
    A new year, for all of us. But (not only) for me, it'll be a special year. Four decades in life, still this winter. And almost ten years here on this brilliant platform.

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    I have only one sentence for this men only picnic man.

    The level of communication clearly drops into a big hole every time I see Brian, but I already have said something about bored ole ...
    A new year, for all of us. But (not only) for me, it'll be a special year. Four decades in life, still this winter. And almost ten years here on this brilliant platform.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. Almost a decade here on this platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Look man, I've always appreciated that you seem to have more cautious standards regarding weather.

    ...BUT...I'm not sure I've ever seen you say, "Yeah, that does look bad", or "Yeah, I know guys and situations where they push things more than what they really should", or maybe even- "Yeah, it's bad but there's just no way to regulate it"...

    That's the source of my razz...sort of a refusal to discuss, instead, short, rather useless pontifications...make sense?

    I am sorry if you read me the wrong way here 3, You are absolutely right and you know it. There will always be the ones that think they are better than the rest, and will take risks that others do not. There will ALWAYS be the pressure, implied or not from the Company to go, go, go on time. Having grown up in a different age of electronic weather detection than the ones available in today's aircraft, we were a bit more cautious I guess.

    BB

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I am sorry if you read me the wrong way here 3, You are absolutely right and you know it. There will always be the ones that think they are better than the rest, and will take risks that others do not. There will ALWAYS be the pressure, implied or not from the Company to go, go, go on time. Having grown up in a different age of electronic weather detection than the ones available in today's aircraft, we were a bit more cautious I guess.

    BB
    Thanks...forgive me for the outsider, ass-hat pontification (and even Evan-like demands) that I wish the industry would do something more and tangible to avoid storms.

    I do actually understand that sometimes, you might be low on fuel, and nowhere else to land, and I understand major airports and not-so-severe storms where plane after plane can provide 'no-big-deal' ride reports on 3 minute intervals (or maybe 1 minute intervals for multi-parallel runways).

    BUT this incident really get's my goat. What in the hell were the pilots thinking? What in the hell was ATC thinking? AND is the weather data on bad-ass potentially tornadic thunderstorms flowing as it should? Should it not have been painfully obvious to not take off (or not make some sort non-standard turn).

    Makes me want to rant for more regulations and procedures and changes...(And apologies for feeling that way on this.)

    I still gotta push you one more time, Bobby, are you saying, "Tough poo poo, we can't 'regulate' this so just keep your fingers crossed that your crew will think like me"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    I have only one sentence for this men only picnic man.

    The level of communication clearly drops into a big hole every time I see Brian, but I already have said something about bored ole ...
    I believe that the normal language barrier has caused you to misinterpret Brian's humourous-but-relevant-and-appropriate comment.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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