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  • #16
    Originally posted by Uros Drapsin View Post
    ........ they admit mistakes and they accept the punishment

    Well here's your first problem. For you to even use the word "punishment" tells me that you shouldn't be anywhere near a Safety Department.
    Parlour Talker Extraordinaire

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Vnav View Post
      Well here's your first problem. For you to even use the word "punishment" tells me that you shouldn't be anywhere near a Safety Department.
      Dear Vnav, there's no need for such comments. Also, bare in mind that cultural differences. We are talking about China, and Chinese airlines. Maybe things are done differently in your country and the word 'punishment' doesn't exist, however in China this is the way. I'm pretty sure Chinese people know thing or two how to control 1.6 billion citizens in order and this system probably works for them. I don't want to go into details about the entire scenario but like I said, these pilots disobeyed the SOP and the GA callout so therefore company manuals state that "punishment" needs to be applied.

      Please would you be kind in giving me your thoughts and maybe your experiences about it rather than trying to humiliate me.

      As someone new in all of this, you have to understand i'm learning. This was just a convo between me and GM which i wanted to share with you and maybe learn from you even more. I have read a lot and gave couple of presentations trying to make them aware of Just Culture within the Safety Culture, and as pilot yourself you should probably know about these, and what is acceptable and unacceptable, and if you would get punished for disobeying the SOP.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Hi Uros ~

        First of all, I'm a bit envious of the opportunity you have been given, but I don't envy what you are up against. In these instances of violation, assuming pilots are well-trained to begin with, I think there are two conflicting things arguing in the minds of pilots. One is educational in nature, a demonstrable understanding and retention of rules and procedure and a practiced ability to reliably execute them. The other is cultural, an overriding and unspoken prime directive to perform to the level of your peers by showing your innate airmanship abilities and completing the mission (often called get-there-itis).

        The first side of the argument, the cautionary one, may be weakened if the airline is not teaching the reasons for strict adherance to rules and procedure. One way this can be done effectively is somewhat akin to how we were taught to drive in high-school: cautionary tales of risk-prone fools who dared to flout the rules and paid the price. The canon of accident report literature (and film dramatizations) is extensive, not just for major fatal accidents but also for more minor things like tail strikes. Familiarizing pilots with these often technically-rich summarizations of momentary pilot error might result in pilots who are more aware of their own vulnerability to human factors and are thus reluctant to let hubris and blind confidence prevail over better judgment. My theory is that the skies are filled with pilots who are still more-or-less ignorant of the powerful effects of human factors upon their skills and judgment and thus dangerously over-confident, and this leads to a tendency to disrepect rules and procedure (and, since in most cases they will prevail despite the danger, each success strengthens that disrespect). My theorectical airline would require pilots to occasionally study these reports and test them for the basic lessons they contain.

        The other side of the argument, the will to place performance over safety, may be strengthened by subtle, implied company pressure to perform, to reach the destination and avoid the delays and complications resulting from a go-around or diversion, for example. So I would advise you to investigate this: is the company sending mixed messages? Operators want two things: safety and profits. These two ambitions will sometimes be in conflict and in that case safety must take precedence. It is vital that your pilots are receiving that message. Is management doing everything it can to make that happen or are they doing things to the contrary? My theorectical airline would emphasize the supremacy of the captain to make whatever decisions are deemed to be in the best interest of safety, without personal consequences or accounting, even if those decisions might be judged wrong in hindsight, and that safety is the mission.

        Aside from that 'argument', there are things that simply erode judgment and render the mind ineffective, such as fatigue, cockpit gradient (common is Asia) and competitive pilot culture. Is your company rostering pilots to the point of fatigue? Are they unaware of any existing company pilot culture that impels pilots into a peer-pressure competition, that values boldness over caution? Is there a culture that inhibits first officers from speaking their concerns to senior pilots? Is the company speaking to pilots collectively about the danger of all this? Are they vigilant and active in preventing it?

        My last point is probably mute, but long ago, the analog to the modern flight deck captain was the ship captain and the ship captain was at that time often a man of well-rounded education. The value of this is that a person educated in various areas of knowlege has both a more practiced capacity for learning what is taught to them and for respecting the authority of that knowledge. Today I think more and more cockpits are captained by those who have instead a deep and narrow education, who know how to fly quite well but might lack better judgment when it comes time to face a sudden, complex decision and to resolve it with a cautious wisdom rather than impulsive instinct. You see overtures of this in the theatrical depictions of ship captains who are boldly going places but often succeed through cunning and calm, thought-through wisdom. I truly wish anyone wearing the uniform of a captain in a cockpit today had been groomed in this old-world way, but, back to reality, I think there are probably still mental exercises that airlines could invest in to provide senior pilots with a more reliable sense of judgment. And of course this concern could also play more a role of their initial screening and promoting policies. I fear airlines today, facing pilot shortages and shareholder pressure, are unwilling to invest that deeply in the quality of their senior people and place their faith instead in preventative avionic technologies to save pilots from themselves.

        Those are my observations in a nutshell. The problem you describe is, as I see it, a problem of psychology and judgment and ultimately wisdom that can be mitigated by a company dedicated to investing time and resources toward the betterment of their own people, not just in flying but in thinking and respecting what is taught to them. And it is a problem of companies not wanting to do that.
        Dear Evan thanks for your amazing comment. I've read it, but I need to read it again and try to soak it all in, because English is not my mother language, and I'll tell you my thoughts

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        • #19
          Hai Uros Drapsin, One of my friend is working in airlines. I will discuss with my friend and let you know. I am Working as Salesforce Trainer in a reputed training institute.

          Regards:
          Last edited by brianw999; 2018-01-10, 12:55. Reason: Removed spam url link.
          Big Data Training in Chennai | Best Hadoop Training in Chennai | Best Hadoop Training Institute in Chennai

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          • #20
            [QUOTE=sakthimurugan;658367]Hai Uros Drapsin, One of my friend is working in airlines. I will discuss with my friend and let you know. I am Working as Salesforce Trainer in a reputed training institute.

            Regards:



            Wow, looking forward to your reply Mr. sakthimurugan. Hope you'll have some cool info for me
            Last edited by brianw999; 2018-01-10, 12:56. Reason: Removed spam url link.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Vnav View Post
              Well here's your first problem. For you to even use the word "punishment" tells me that you shouldn't be anywhere near a Safety Department.
              really? why is that? ya know, it is possible to re-train and punish. and there are times when violation of safety protocols is intentional (such as disabling GPWS because it annoys you), thus warranting punishment as opposed to re-training.

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