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Thread: Safety data sample collecting?

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    Question Safety data sample collecting?

    Hello to big Jetphotos community,

    Since there are a lot of people from different backgrounds, I hope someone will be able to help me out on this issue. I recently started working in aviation industry with no prior experience and I think I got a difficult task from my superior for someone that's really new.

    To further explain, I got to work in Chinese airlines company and its safety supervision department. One of my superiors told me he wants to improve all departments quality work that is related to aircraft operations. He wants me to find/make way to collect samples of data from those departments that are related to aircraft safety operations. I know the only data company collects is QAR (quick access recorder). We also have SMS (safety management system) but I don't know how much of that is relevant. The thing is I don't even know where to start from, and I haven't seen any of the related departments (flight department, maintenance, cargo handling, cabin crew, dispatchers) to get the feel of what they do and how it relates to safety. (imagine that).

    I guess it would be very helpful if I knew what are important safety process and procedures in such departments in day to day operations. And how would they be measured and are there any softwares that can be implemented or exist for such departments.

    I plea for help if anyone has some advice for me and I hope my message is somewhat understanding.

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uros Drapsin View Post
    Hello to big Jetphotos community,

    Since there are a lot of people from different backgrounds, I hope someone will be able to help me out on this issue. I recently started working in aviation industry with no prior experience and I think I got a difficult task from my superior for someone that's really new.

    To further explain, I got to work in Chinese airlines company and its safety supervision department. One of my superiors told me he wants to improve all departments quality work that is related to aircraft operations. He wants me to find/make way to collect samples of data from those departments that are related to aircraft safety operations. I know the only data company collects is QAR (quick access recorder). We also have SMS (safety management system) but I don't know how much of that is relevant. The thing is I don't even know where to start from, and I haven't seen any of the related departments (flight department, maintenance, cargo handling, cabin crew, dispatchers) to get the feel of what they do and how it relates to safety. (imagine that).

    I guess it would be very helpful if I knew what are important safety process and procedures in such departments in day to day operations. And how would they be measured and are there any softwares that can be implemented or exist for such departments.

    I plea for help if anyone has some advice for me and I hope my message is somewhat understanding.
    You will need a lot of contact with those departments, which I know is difficult in many Airlines in the western world (I can only imagine in China).
    Outside your company, an obvious but very good place to start is in the IOSA audit standards:
    http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/safety/...ges/index.aspx

    This is a sort of ISO 9000 standard and audit, but with exclusive and intensive focus in safety and security management in airlines, and it addresses specifically the safety and security aspects of those departments. In the standard's manual you will find specific requirements, and in the audit standard, specific questions. Finding ways to answering those questions can be a good way to achieve your task. And, in turn, will leave your airline much more ready to face the IOSA audit.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Thank you Gabriel.

    I'm familiar with IOSA standards to some extent. Hopefully I do good job on this one. I will post my results and what I did regarding this matter at the end of the year letting you and everyone else in this community know what to do if any encounter similar problems in future.

    Another quick question regarding IOSA. I can't figure out what is the difference between IOSA renewal audit and verification audit in the IOSA Program Manual (chapter 7.2.3 and 7.2.4)

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    IOSA AUDIT HANDBOOK 8th EDITION, SEPTEMBER 2017

    5.6 Verification Audits
    5.6.1 Process for Verification Audits
    In accordance with the IPM 7.7.5, IATA may determine a Verification Audit (VA) must be conducted to
    ensure continued conformity with the ISM and IPM. This is based on the situation where the Operator
    has had a significant change in their organization or operation, that the audit report is no longer an
    accurate reflection of the Operator.

    The renewal audit is just the next regular audit(s) after the initial audit, that is, before the certificate of the initial (or previous renewal) audit expires.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Thank you Gabriel once again.

    Fortunately I was able to find what i was looking for. Another question for a senior member. Maybe you can share some light on this as well. I'm doing research about Evidence Based Training (EBT) for pilots but I keep running into another term "Competency based training" (CBT). https://www.civilaviation.training/p...ture-aviation/ this article says the meaning is the same but some on the other hand don't. Do you know if that's actually the same thing and if not what's the difference? And if you have some links to refer would also be great.

    Your small help could mean a lot to me.

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    I don't know. It seems that EBT is an implementation of CBT, whereas CBT is a larger concept than EBT.

    These documents seem to be the foundation stone of EBT:

    https://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2...20Amdt%204.pdf
    https://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2...%209995.en.pdf
    https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fi...0Issue%201.pdf

    Now, remember my first words: I don't know.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Hello,

    I wish I was a CEO of anything haha. I don't know what happened to you back in 2008, and I feel sorry if it was something bad. Anyway, as you can see, I put my first and last name, so you can google me, or LinkedIn me (and add me if you want, coz I could use more aviation connections) I'm genuinely new kid on the block, and I'm trying to figure out things myself, but I need some assistance now and then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I don't know. It seems that EBT is an implementation of CBT, whereas CBT is a larger concept than EBT.

    These documents seem to be the foundation stone of EBT:

    https://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2...20Amdt%204.pdf
    https://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2...%209995.en.pdf
    https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fi...0Issue%201.pdf

    Now, remember my first words: I don't know.
    Thanks Gabriel for being here for me once again, I really appreciate it. I also found the same links you sent me. And yes apparently EBT and CBT complement each other in a way.

    I was just having a convo with my GM who was asking me for opinion on a really interesting topic/situation. Let me explain.
    My company (for the sake of confidentiality I will not state the name of it) has problems with pilots not following the strict rules/procedures of our company. The latest one was regarding the GO-AROUND. In our manuals, when a GO-AROUND call-out occurs, the aircraft must do it. But the PF and PM had a discussion and decided to continue the final approach therefore disobeying the rules. This happened more than one occasion, and it keeps happening again. GM said when he talks with them, they admit mistakes and they accept the punishment anddd when asked to recite the rules they can do it with ease. Which means they now the rules, and when in simulator being observed they execute the required procedure flawless. Obviously they had a control of the aircraft and were able to make necessary corrections and land the plane safely, but the point is what i said not obeying the rules.

    What are your guys opinions on this? Would like to hear your thought? Is it because they are lazy, or they think the rules are to rigorous? And how would you make them actually follow the rules and believe in them? (because punishment - stripping them of wings for taking their money doesn't work) How is it done in your companies? ))

    Hope you can share some experience on that one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uros Drapsin View Post
    Thanks Gabriel for being here for me once again, I really appreciate it. I also found the same links you sent me. And yes apparently EBT and CBT complement each other in a way.

    I was just having a convo with my GM who was asking me for opinion on a really interesting topic/situation. Let me explain.
    My company (for the sake of confidentiality I will not state the name of it) has problems with pilots not following the strict rules/procedures of our company. The latest one was regarding the GO-AROUND. In our manuals, when a GO-AROUND call-out occurs, the aircraft must do it. But the PF and PM had a discussion and decided to continue the final approach therefore disobeying the rules. This happened more than one occasion, and it keeps happening again. GM said when he talks with them, they admit mistakes and they accept the punishment anddd when asked to recite the rules they can do it with ease. Which means they now the rules, and when in simulator being observed they execute the required procedure flawless. Obviously they had a control of the aircraft and were able to make necessary corrections and land the plane safely, but the point is what i said not obeying the rules.

    What are your guys opinions on this? Would like to hear your thought? Is it because they are lazy, or they think the rules are to rigorous? And how would you make them actually follow the rules and believe in them? (because punishment - stripping them of wings for taking their money doesn't work) How is it done in your companies? ))

    Hope you can share some experience on that one
    Very interesting topic that I don't want to rush an answer. I am in a hurry now so I will rely when I have more time.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    no offense, but i find it strikingly odd that any airline or aviation company would hire a person with no prior knowledge of airline/aviation ops to work in its quality assurance/safety assurance program. very odd indeed.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    no offense, but i find it strikingly odd that any airline or aviation company would hire a person with no prior knowledge of airline/aviation ops to work in its quality assurance/safety assurance program. very odd indeed.....
    Experience is gained with experience. All airlines (and companies) hire junior people and train them and let them gain experience. I have a lot of friends that studied Aeronautical Engineering with me and then went to work for an airline in different roles. One for example in Engineering, where he had to define the technical maint work to be done of each plane. Another one in Quality, where he was auditor. Of course none of them was left alone in the beginning. Eventual, one became the Engineering Manager and another one the Quality Manager and Chief Auditor where he would for example represent the company with the local authorities, the FAA, ICAO, IATA and the external auditors, and who is now one of the persons with more experience in IOSA requirements and audits in the world. Of did you have a lot of experience in Law when you got your first job in Law?

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    sure. i worked in a quasi-apprentice position but didn't decide anything or figure anything out. i was not asked to formulate a data collection method for departments whose jobs/functions i didn't know.

    basically, i was told to research the law (the method of which i was taught in school) and present what i thought was the right answer. then my work was reviewed and i was either congratulated or sent back to start over.

    by the time i graduated law school, i was already drafting briefs for appeal before the louisiana state supreme court and had argued many motions at the trial court level.

    my point was simply how do you ask a person who is admittedly ignorant of aviation to design systems/processes for aviation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Experience is gained with experience. All airlines (and companies) hire junior people and train them and let them gain experience. I have a lot of friends that studied Aeronautical Engineering with me and then went to work for an airline in different roles. One for example in Engineering, where he had to define the technical maint work to be done of each plane. Another one in Quality, where he was auditor. Of course none of them was left alone in the beginning. Eventual, one became the Engineering Manager and another one the Quality Manager and Chief Auditor where he would for example represent the company with the local authorities, the FAA, ICAO, IATA and the external auditors, and who is now one of the persons with more experience in IOSA requirements and audits in the world. Of did you have a lot of experience in Law when you got your first job in Law?
    Thanks for the support Gabriel, much appreciated. Like you said i'm just a junior at this, and like one of your friends I'll also be assisting in the internal audits getting all sorted out for upcoming IOSA audit. Also please take your time about the topic I mentioned before, would really like to hear your opinion on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    sure. i worked in a quasi-apprentice position but didn't decide anything or figure anything out. i was not asked to formulate a data collection method for departments whose jobs/functions i didn't know.

    basically, i was told to research the law (the method of which i was taught in school) and present what i thought was the right answer. then my work was reviewed and i was either congratulated or sent back to start over.

    by the time i graduated law school, i was already drafting briefs for appeal before the louisiana state supreme court and had argued many motions at the trial court level.

    my point was simply how do you ask a person who is admittedly ignorant of aviation to design systems/processes for aviation...
    Hi TeeVee, happy new year and I hope all the best comes your way in 2018. As far as your comments. No offense taken, when they hired me, I told them I had no previous experience in aviation. But they said no to worry and that they will teach me in next 2 years, and indeed they are, just maybe not as fast as I was hoping for. But I'm not complaining. Just trying to learn as much as I can on my own and with your guys help.

    Also one of the reasons I was given this task is before I joined airlines, I graduated in Engineering Management and I had some experience but mostly related to big factory production lines. Still that was far off from this and although some kind of quality checks like LEAN, 6-Sigma can be implemented with no doubt this requires a team of people and it's not one man show. Fortunately I had people with more experience taking of that task and I was just assisting and giving them them some suggestions on how the samples collected can be used for future improvement of safety within each respective department.

    I'm glad for this community, giving some life to this topic, and I really appreciate you guys taking your time and responding to my post.

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    Hi Uros ~

    First of all, I'm a bit envious of the opportunity you have been given, but I don't envy what you are up against. In these instances of violation, assuming pilots are well-trained to begin with, I think there are two conflicting things arguing in the minds of pilots. One is educational in nature, a demonstrable understanding and retention of rules and procedure and a practiced ability to reliably execute them. The other is cultural, an overriding and unspoken prime directive to perform to the level of your peers by showing your innate airmanship abilities and completing the mission (often called get-there-itis).

    The first side of the argument, the cautionary one, may be weakened if the airline is not teaching the reasons for strict adherance to rules and procedure. One way this can be done effectively is somewhat akin to how we were taught to drive in high-school: cautionary tales of risk-prone fools who dared to flout the rules and paid the price. The canon of accident report literature (and film dramatizations) is extensive, not just for major fatal accidents but also for more minor things like tail strikes. Familiarizing pilots with these often technically-rich summarizations of momentary pilot error might result in pilots who are more aware of their own vulnerability to human factors and are thus reluctant to let hubris and blind confidence prevail over better judgment. My theory is that the skies are filled with pilots who are still more-or-less ignorant of the powerful effects of human factors upon their skills and judgment and thus dangerously over-confident, and this leads to a tendency to disrepect rules and procedure (and, since in most cases they will prevail despite the danger, each success strengthens that disrespect). My theorectical airline would require pilots to occasionally study these reports and test them for the basic lessons they contain.

    The other side of the argument, the will to place performance over safety, may be strengthened by subtle, implied company pressure to perform, to reach the destination and avoid the delays and complications resulting from a go-around or diversion, for example. So I would advise you to investigate this: is the company sending mixed messages? Operators want two things: safety and profits. These two ambitions will sometimes be in conflict and in that case safety must take precedence. It is vital that your pilots are receiving that message. Is management doing everything it can to make that happen or are they doing things to the contrary? My theorectical airline would emphasize the supremacy of the captain to make whatever decisions are deemed to be in the best interest of safety, without personal consequences or accounting, even if those decisions might be judged wrong in hindsight, and that safety is the mission.

    Aside from that 'argument', there are things that simply erode judgment and render the mind ineffective, such as fatigue, cockpit gradient (common is Asia) and competitive pilot culture. Is your company rostering pilots to the point of fatigue? Are they unaware of any existing company pilot culture that impels pilots into a peer-pressure competition, that values boldness over caution? Is there a culture that inhibits first officers from speaking their concerns to senior pilots? Is the company speaking to pilots collectively about the danger of all this? Are they vigilant and active in preventing it?

    My last point is probably mute, but long ago, the analog to the modern flight deck captain was the ship captain and the ship captain was at that time often a man of well-rounded education. The value of this is that a person educated in various areas of knowlege has both a more practiced capacity for learning what is taught to them and for respecting the authority of that knowledge. Today I think more and more cockpits are captained by those who have instead a deep and narrow education, who know how to fly quite well but might lack better judgment when it comes time to face a sudden, complex decision and to resolve it with a cautious wisdom rather than impulsive instinct. You see overtures of this in the theatrical depictions of ship captains who are boldly going places but often succeed through cunning and calm, thought-through wisdom. I truly wish anyone wearing the uniform of a captain in a cockpit today had been groomed in this old-world way, but, back to reality, I think there are probably still mental exercises that airlines could invest in to provide senior pilots with a more reliable sense of judgment. And of course this concern could also play more a role of their initial screening and promoting policies. I fear airlines today, facing pilot shortages and shareholder pressure, are unwilling to invest that deeply in the quality of their senior people and place their faith instead in preventative avionic technologies to save pilots from themselves.

    Those are my observations in a nutshell. The problem you describe is, as I see it, a problem of psychology and judgment and ultimately wisdom that can be mitigated by a company dedicated to investing time and resources toward the betterment of their own people, not just in flying but in thinking and respecting what is taught to them. And it is a problem of companies not wanting to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uros Drapsin View Post
    ........ they admit mistakes and they accept the punishment

    Well here's your first problem. For you to even use the word "punishment" tells me that you shouldn't be anywhere near a Safety Department.
    Parlour Talker Extraordinaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vnav View Post
    Well here's your first problem. For you to even use the word "punishment" tells me that you shouldn't be anywhere near a Safety Department.
    Dear Vnav, there's no need for such comments. Also, bare in mind that cultural differences. We are talking about China, and Chinese airlines. Maybe things are done differently in your country and the word 'punishment' doesn't exist, however in China this is the way. I'm pretty sure Chinese people know thing or two how to control 1.6 billion citizens in order and this system probably works for them. I don't want to go into details about the entire scenario but like I said, these pilots disobeyed the SOP and the GA callout so therefore company manuals state that "punishment" needs to be applied.

    Please would you be kind in giving me your thoughts and maybe your experiences about it rather than trying to humiliate me.

    As someone new in all of this, you have to understand i'm learning. This was just a convo between me and GM which i wanted to share with you and maybe learn from you even more. I have read a lot and gave couple of presentations trying to make them aware of Just Culture within the Safety Culture, and as pilot yourself you should probably know about these, and what is acceptable and unacceptable, and if you would get punished for disobeying the SOP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Hi Uros ~

    First of all, I'm a bit envious of the opportunity you have been given, but I don't envy what you are up against. In these instances of violation, assuming pilots are well-trained to begin with, I think there are two conflicting things arguing in the minds of pilots. One is educational in nature, a demonstrable understanding and retention of rules and procedure and a practiced ability to reliably execute them. The other is cultural, an overriding and unspoken prime directive to perform to the level of your peers by showing your innate airmanship abilities and completing the mission (often called get-there-itis).

    The first side of the argument, the cautionary one, may be weakened if the airline is not teaching the reasons for strict adherance to rules and procedure. One way this can be done effectively is somewhat akin to how we were taught to drive in high-school: cautionary tales of risk-prone fools who dared to flout the rules and paid the price. The canon of accident report literature (and film dramatizations) is extensive, not just for major fatal accidents but also for more minor things like tail strikes. Familiarizing pilots with these often technically-rich summarizations of momentary pilot error might result in pilots who are more aware of their own vulnerability to human factors and are thus reluctant to let hubris and blind confidence prevail over better judgment. My theory is that the skies are filled with pilots who are still more-or-less ignorant of the powerful effects of human factors upon their skills and judgment and thus dangerously over-confident, and this leads to a tendency to disrepect rules and procedure (and, since in most cases they will prevail despite the danger, each success strengthens that disrespect). My theorectical airline would require pilots to occasionally study these reports and test them for the basic lessons they contain.

    The other side of the argument, the will to place performance over safety, may be strengthened by subtle, implied company pressure to perform, to reach the destination and avoid the delays and complications resulting from a go-around or diversion, for example. So I would advise you to investigate this: is the company sending mixed messages? Operators want two things: safety and profits. These two ambitions will sometimes be in conflict and in that case safety must take precedence. It is vital that your pilots are receiving that message. Is management doing everything it can to make that happen or are they doing things to the contrary? My theorectical airline would emphasize the supremacy of the captain to make whatever decisions are deemed to be in the best interest of safety, without personal consequences or accounting, even if those decisions might be judged wrong in hindsight, and that safety is the mission.

    Aside from that 'argument', there are things that simply erode judgment and render the mind ineffective, such as fatigue, cockpit gradient (common is Asia) and competitive pilot culture. Is your company rostering pilots to the point of fatigue? Are they unaware of any existing company pilot culture that impels pilots into a peer-pressure competition, that values boldness over caution? Is there a culture that inhibits first officers from speaking their concerns to senior pilots? Is the company speaking to pilots collectively about the danger of all this? Are they vigilant and active in preventing it?

    My last point is probably mute, but long ago, the analog to the modern flight deck captain was the ship captain and the ship captain was at that time often a man of well-rounded education. The value of this is that a person educated in various areas of knowlege has both a more practiced capacity for learning what is taught to them and for respecting the authority of that knowledge. Today I think more and more cockpits are captained by those who have instead a deep and narrow education, who know how to fly quite well but might lack better judgment when it comes time to face a sudden, complex decision and to resolve it with a cautious wisdom rather than impulsive instinct. You see overtures of this in the theatrical depictions of ship captains who are boldly going places but often succeed through cunning and calm, thought-through wisdom. I truly wish anyone wearing the uniform of a captain in a cockpit today had been groomed in this old-world way, but, back to reality, I think there are probably still mental exercises that airlines could invest in to provide senior pilots with a more reliable sense of judgment. And of course this concern could also play more a role of their initial screening and promoting policies. I fear airlines today, facing pilot shortages and shareholder pressure, are unwilling to invest that deeply in the quality of their senior people and place their faith instead in preventative avionic technologies to save pilots from themselves.

    Those are my observations in a nutshell. The problem you describe is, as I see it, a problem of psychology and judgment and ultimately wisdom that can be mitigated by a company dedicated to investing time and resources toward the betterment of their own people, not just in flying but in thinking and respecting what is taught to them. And it is a problem of companies not wanting to do that.
    Dear Evan thanks for your amazing comment. I've read it, but I need to read it again and try to soak it all in, because English is not my mother language, and I'll tell you my thoughts

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    Hai Uros Drapsin, One of my friend is working in airlines. I will discuss with my friend and let you know. I am Working as Salesforce Trainer in a reputed training institute.

    Regards:
    Last edited by brianw999; 01-10-2018 at 12:55 PM. Reason: Removed spam url link.

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    [QUOTE=sakthimurugan;658367]Hai Uros Drapsin, One of my friend is working in airlines. I will discuss with my friend and let you know. I am Working as Salesforce Trainer in a reputed training institute.

    Regards:



    Wow, looking forward to your reply Mr. sakthimurugan. Hope you'll have some cool info for me
    Last edited by brianw999; 01-10-2018 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Removed spam url link.

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