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Thread: Safety or stupidity?

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    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    Default Safety or stupidity?

    So having flown close to 1,500,000 miles there are still some things that defy explanation or sanity for that matter. on the way to DCA the other day, we experienced a ground stop at KMIA. while it didn't last long, maybe 6-8 minutes, i guess some folks in the back thought it was a good time to get up and do whatever (i didn't turn around to see).

    one of the fa's got on the PA and practically yelled, "we are on an active taxiway!!!! every sit down NOW!!" the tine in her voice was somewhat of mix between shear panic and exasperation. totally uncalled for.

    this was not the first time i've heard them react this way and it always made me wonder. assuming the seat belt sign is off, the airlines, FAA, whomever, don't give a rat's ass about people walking around whilst hurtling through the sky at 500+ mph, where as we all know CAT has caused plenty of severe injuries. yet, for some stupid-ass reason, every one is categorically against people standing up while the plane is on the ground and moving slower than a city bus and definitely slower than a subway car, both of which have millions of people standing ever day.

    so let's hear what the herd has to say.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    So having flown close to 1,500,000 miles there are still some things that defy explanation or sanity for that matter. on the way to DCA the other day, we experienced a ground stop at KMIA. while it didn't last long, maybe 6-8 minutes, i guess some folks in the back thought it was a good time to get up and do whatever (i didn't turn around to see).

    one of the fa's got on the PA and practically yelled, "we are on an active taxiway!!!! every sit down NOW!!" the tine in her voice was somewhat of mix between shear panic and exasperation. totally uncalled for.

    this was not the first time i've heard them react this way and it always made me wonder. assuming the seat belt sign is off, the airlines, FAA, whomever, don't give a rat's ass about people walking around whilst hurtling through the sky at 500+ mph, where as we all know CAT has caused plenty of severe injuries. yet, for some stupid-ass reason, every one is categorically against people standing up while the plane is on the ground and moving slower than a city bus and definitely slower than a subway car, both of which have millions of people standing ever day.

    so let's hear what the herd has to say.
    Lawyers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    So having flown close to 1,500,000 miles there are still some things that defy explanation or sanity for that matter. on the way to DCA the other day, we experienced a ground stop at KMIA. while it didn't last long, maybe 6-8 minutes, i guess some folks in the back thought it was a good time to get up and do whatever (i didn't turn around to see).

    one of the fa's got on the PA and practically yelled, "we are on an active taxiway!!!! every sit down NOW!!" the tine in her voice was somewhat of mix between shear panic and exasperation. totally uncalled for.

    this was not the first time i've heard them react this way and it always made me wonder. assuming the seat belt sign is off, the airlines, FAA, whomever, don't give a rat's ass about people walking around whilst hurtling through the sky at 500+ mph, where as we all know CAT has caused plenty of severe injuries. yet, for some stupid-ass reason, every one is categorically against people standing up while the plane is on the ground and moving slower than a city bus and definitely slower than a subway car, both of which have millions of people standing ever day.

    so let's hear what the herd has to say.
    Fairness. If people perceive that others are going to get their bags from up top and ready to leave first, they will all start getting up well before you hit the gate. In the air, a handful of people is not going to result in a mass removal of seatbelts, but on the ground... it sure will.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Ok, I generally agree with you- this insistence on being belted in while you are STOPPED on the ramp generally seems a bit over the top. (And you said ground stop, and NOT the normal taxi back to the gate).

    Just for discussion and to play devils advocate I will say the following:

    Yeah, definite black and white procedural thinking to the detriment of common sense and reasonable practice- especially for the FA to be yelling.

    Yeah, 'active taxiway' is a new BS buzz word (heard it just this week at RDU where we had to shut down and be pulled INTO the gate due to construction: "Stay seated and belted, we are still on an ACTIVE taxiway")...

    Yeah, 'active taxiways' are sooooo dangerous...it's a miracle more people aren't killed!

    Ok, devils advocate- I guess the uber-safety culture, "what if we have to slam on the brakes?" (And who in the hell would trust the rampies and their baggage trains...that group and their cohorts, do seem to be a bunch of cowboys!) [/sarcasm with a shred of truth]. (Oh and I guess we keep running planes into each other during routine taxi so, maybe they have a point?)

    And, I guess the biggest devil's advocate...if the plane does get clearance, there could be a delay getting everyone back down and belted in...and there's a requirement for the FA's to visually check seat belts.

    Still- two more extra-emphasis comments:

    Why must we always lie. "Folks, please keep your belts on and don't get up and fool around, if our clearance comes through we want to be able to go!" That's honest! "That we are on a highly dangerous active taxiway"...BS.

    I will also say that crews do a generally crappy job of trying to help with ANYTHING. Last summer on a ground stop at HOU, the pilots finally did come on and say, "our delay is 20 min and we've shut down the engines and you can use the lavatory, fiddle with your carry on, etc....but please do basically stay near your seats and be ready to when our clearance comes"....(And ready for the ironing...this happened on a ACTIVE TAXIWAY!!!!!!!!!!! )

    To your incident, I think you witnessed the phenomenon you often mention of the not-so-stable, burned-out, bad-attitude flight attendant having a bad day (or one tired of New Yorkers).

    Ahhh, one other ironic note...on the way back from RDU, we were doing the totally normal, totally mundane climb, way up in the 20,000 feet range...smooth ride, but the seatbelt sign is still on...a passenger walks back to the lav. As they are walking back (as if Karma is watching), we hit a few ordinary bumps (bumps that 50% of the time will cause the seatbelt sign to go on)...the FA does make a polite announcement, "the seatbelt sign is still on". The tone of voice was nice, but I gotta suspect it was a hidden jab at the passenger (but again, no screaming like from your AA-nutjobs).

    (Ok, footnote #3...I have started unbuckling as we turn off the runway...I still sit there, but hopefully no one will be trying to discover my true identity and send me to jail for this...)
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Lawyers.
    sorry smart guy. FARS 91.107. perhaps written by lawyers but REQUIRED by our beloved lawmakers and NOT the airlines.

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    TreeDubs, i hear what you're saying. i'm not so concerned about burned out fa's, i deal with them and for the most part i ignore their hysteria and they leave me alone. i've been called "the best type of passenger" by more than a few. i sit quietly, drink my drinks, and that's about it.

    my point is more aimed at how stupid the regs are. subway trains operated by the govt travel in excess of 50 mph. buses regularly zip along at 30-35. amtrak trains 60-100+. but taxiing aircraft as slow as 5 mph cause people's hair to raise up? oh and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the regs about being required to have a seatbelt on during cruise?!?!?!

    oh yeah! it MUST be the lawyers!

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    TreeDubs, i hear what you're saying. i'm not so concerned about burned out fa's, i deal with them and for the most part i ignore their hysteria and they leave me alone. i've been called "the best type of passenger" by more than a few. i sit quietly, drink my drinks, and that's about it.

    my point is more aimed at how stupid the regs are. subway trains operated by the govt travel in excess of 50 mph. buses regularly zip along at 30-35. amtrak trains 60-100+. but taxiing aircraft as slow as 5 mph cause people's hair to raise up? oh and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the regs about being required to have a seatbelt on during cruise?!?!?!

    oh yeah! it MUST be the lawyers!
    When rules seem contradictory to common sense AND YET are enforced with a certain tinge of paranoia, you are experiencing the wake turbulence of lawyering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    sorry smart guy. FARS 91.107. perhaps written by lawyers but REQUIRED by our beloved lawmakers
    ...99% of whom are lawyers.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    ***my point is more aimed at how stupid the regs are. subway trains operated by the govt travel in excess of 50 mph. buses regularly zip along at 30-35. amtrak trains 60-100+. but taxiing aircraft as slow as 5 mph cause people's hair to raise up?***
    Yes.

    As Mr. Spock would say, "That is not logical".

    To your specific point: I blame the uber-safety culture with respect to an out of control baggage train & slamming on brakes (and for A-380's clipping CRJ tails and making them do pirouettes...)...the phrase "safety first" and "easily preventable" trumps all sorts of logic- (acknowledging the true bit of logic that "easily preventable" tends to mean "easily preventable").

    Footnote 1: Airplane brakes are a hell of a lot more effective than train brakes.
    Footnote 2: Those intra-terminal trains...Oh the ironing and LOL.
    Footnote 3: Not arguing against your stance, I tend to agree...just cataloging the pros and cons.
    Footnote 4: People in safety roles do seem to fear "you lawyers".
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    subway trains operated by the govt travel in excess of 50 mph. buses regularly zip along at 30-35. amtrak trains 60-100+. but taxiing aircraft as slow as 5 mph cause people's hair to raise up? oh and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the regs about being required to have a seatbelt on during cruise?!?!?!
    To add another layer of irony, of all the vehicles you mention, aircraft are the only ones that even *have* seatbelts!
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    ...my point is more aimed at how stupid the regs are...amtrak trains 60-100+...
    The sad ironing of the timing of your post is quite thick...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Yes.

    As Mr. Spock would say, "That is not logical".

    To your specific point: I blame the uber-safety culture with respect to an out of control baggage train & slamming on brakes (and for A-380's clipping CRJ tails and making them do pirouettes...)...the phrase "safety first" and "easily preventable" trumps all sorts of logic- (acknowledging the true bit of logic that "easily preventable" tends to mean "easily preventable").

    Footnote 1: Airplane brakes are a hell of a lot more effective than train brakes.
    Footnote 2: Those intra-terminal trains...Oh the ironing and LOL.
    Footnote 3: Not arguing against your stance, I tend to agree...just cataloging the pros and cons.
    Footnote 4: People in safety roles do seem to fear "you lawyers".
    Originally Posted by TeeVee...my point is more aimed at how stupid the regs are...amtrak trains 60-100+...


    Come on now T.V., really!

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    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    When rules seem contradictory to common sense AND YET are enforced with a certain tinge of paranoia, you are experiencing the wake turbulence of lawyering.
    right. couldn't possibly be b&w /absolutist thinking. or maybe man's innate fear of flying even if its unconscious.

    3w is right. you are truly a one dimensional thinker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    ...99% of whom are lawyers.
    at least some of whom i'm sure you voted for

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    The sad ironing of the timing of your post is quite thick...
    it really is. thankfully THAT didn't end worse than it did

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Come on now T.V., really![/I][/COLOR]
    at risk of missing your sarcasm....i really am boggled by the amount of "sheepness" in our society. it's amazing and disgusting all at the same time. there is so little real thinking and so much acceptance of whatever. i'm not a rabble rouser but i am anti establishment. not in the hippy sense either. there's just far too much, "well, that's the way it is...."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    at risk of missing your sarcasm....i really am boggled by the amount of "sheepness" in our society. it's amazing and disgusting all at the same time. there is so little real thinking and so much acceptance of whatever. i'm not a rabble rouser but i am anti establishment. not in the hippy sense either. there's just far too much, "well, that's the way it is...."
    Well, that's the way it is.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Well, that's the way it is.
    In a nut shell!

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    oh you guys are killing me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    at risk of missing your sarcasm....i really am boggled by the amount of "sheepness" in our society. it's amazing and disgusting all at the same time. there is so little real thinking and so much acceptance of whatever. i'm not a rabble rouser but i am anti establishment. not in the hippy sense either. there's just far too much, "well, that's the way it is...."
    I don't think being an airline passenger is the best place to be anti-establishment. Flying has become so routine and uneventful that we forget the dangers. We forget that we are moving. When the crew instructs you to remain in your seat, why not just do that? There are also too many "anti-establishment" thinkers out there who ignore warnings, get injured, refuse to accept that it was due to their own stupidity and go directly for the lawyers who then extract settlements, thus making the rules even more strict. It's a spiral of rebelliousness and lawyering that got us here Teevee.

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