Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pilots Monkeying with CB's

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pilots Monkeying with CB's

    Do we have to start locking these things away from certain third world aviators? First Air Asia and now this from the Trigana AT42 crash:
    These experiences led to the pilot behaviour of pulling the EGPWS circuit breaker to eliminate nuisance of EGPWS warning.

    The management had identified some pilots including the accident pilot with behaviour of pulling EGPWS CB.

    Yeah, that's right, 'pilots', pural. Culture.

    I get the very strong impression that basic airmanship alone isn't cutting it anymore. Pilots need to be educated on the essential nature of these systems and that, no matter how much of a "nuisance" they are, you can't just pull them.

    Ironically, when LOT flt 16 could have been spared the indignity of a belly landing with a simple CB reset, nobody thought of this...

    More CB knowledge up there please.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Ironically, when LOT flt 16 could have been spared the indignity of a belly landing with a simple CB reset, nobody thought of this...
    Because that required PUSHING a CB, not PULLING one.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      Because that required PUSHING a CB, not PULLING one.
      This is what we're dealing with. Yes, resetting requires pushing. I can't recall if there was a maintenance collar on that breaker.

      Comment


      • #4
        Is this in reference to the January edition of Flying Magazine where a single engine airplane was spit out of a CB in pieces while a nearby Cessna 402 reported no unusual turbulence?
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          More CB knowledge up there please.
          I don't think it's that simple. This is more like one the classic case of turning off the good engine. Seems like working with CB's is a very normal part of aviation and resetting all of the scientifically engineered electronic safety double checker systems...then, throw in the simple, old fashioned brain fart.

          One of my many favorite J-31 memories was the pilots trying to reset the fuel-used display. Punched the reset buttons about 10 times...and finally it took...so that is how we fix glitch, oh, yeah, real high tech!
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            One of my many favorite J-31 memories was the pilots trying to reset the fuel-used display. Punched the reset buttons about 10 times...and finally it took...so that is how we fix glitch, oh, yeah, real high tech!
            And tragically, this is the DIY, improv mentality that is sometimes imported into commercial aviation by pilots lacking training and technical understanding.

            Anyway, here we have a case of something that is not in need of resetting, that is operating perfectly, and providing protection against CFIT, but the crew finds it annoying, despite currently skimming above dangerous mountainous terrain.

            The captain (60, ATPL, 25,287 hours total, 7,341 hours on type) was assisted by a first officer (44, CPL, 3,818 hours total, 2,640 hours on type).

            When it comes to bad habits, the more hours clocked, the more dangerous the pilot.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              Is this in reference to the January edition of Flying Magazine where a single engine airplane was spit out of a CB in pieces while a nearby Cessna 402 reported no unusual turbulence?
              Ha! It took me a while. Would have never gotten it if it wasn't for the other thread there.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                When it comes to bad habits, the more hours clocked, the more dangerous the pilot.
                Care to back this up by fact? At my old company by the way, you were allowed one reset attempt of a CB.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  Is this in reference to the January edition of Flying Magazine where a single engine airplane was spit out of a CB in pieces while a nearby Cessna 402 reported no unusual turbulence?
                  Contact Breakers, not Cumulo Nimbus !! .....or have you trapped me into biting ?

                  Happy new year to all my non picture uploading clients !
                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                    Care to back this up by fact? At my old company by the way, you were allowed one reset attempt of a CB.
                    A pull, a cycle or a reset? Which ones and why and in what sequence? Certainly there are CB's that can be reset in flight. Fewer thay can be safely pulled or cycled. Very few (none, I would argue) that can be safely pulled without understanding the systems and circuits you are messing with and the cascade of consequences that might result. Wouldn't you agree?

                    What I'm talking about here are very systems-dumb pilots who are using CB's as a routine control to defeat nuisances, like a EGPWS that is just doing what it is designed to do or a yaw damper that is acting up. There IS a GROUND procedure to reset the yaw damper on the A320 by cycling the FAC circuit breakers (the procedure is actually to use the pushbutton first and to go to CB's only if the pushbutton doesn't solve the problem). The reset time is 90 seconds and it must be done with the engines off and the hydraulics depressurized. Some daft Air Asia pilot (with plenty of flight hours) observes this is thinks "aha, I can do that!" Right. So they pulled one - nothing - then reset that without waiting 90 secs and pulled the other. Bang! Now they have no FAC function, no speed protections, no normal law and no autopilot. And after that, apparently no situational awareness and thus no airmanship. And now they no longer fly or walk or breath or do stupid things with CB's.

                    Yet this is proven to be a culturally ingrained practice at some airlines.

                    Now we've got an airline where some of its pilots are pulling the EGPWS circuits while skimming over mountaintops in IMC. What could go wrong? Well, the charts could be inaccurate, the MSA too low. The altimeters off. And you just shut down your primary line-of-defense—excuse me, OUR primary line-of-defense—because it was annoying you.

                    And then we have a LOT 767 where the alternate gear extension isn't responding and nobody thinks to check the uplock CB! Which would have been quite obviously open. It makes me wonder how much pilot "need-to-know" is going on here, how much flight engineering isn't be taught anymore.

                    Tell us, BB, at what point is it appropriate to pull a CB in flight?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                      Contact Breakers, not Cumulo Nimbus !! .....or have you trapped me into biting ?

                      Happy new year to all my non picture uploading clients !
                      Yes, it is CIRCUIT breaker.
                      Yes, you bit into the joke. 3WE knew exactly what Evan was talking about.
                      Yes, happy new year for you too

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                        Contact Breakers, not Cumulo Nimbus !! .....or have you trapped me into biting ?

                        Happy new year to all my non picture uploading clients !
                        Yes. We are too in love with our acronyms, and there are risks when you monkey with CBs. Happy parlour talk new year.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Ha! It took me a while. Would have never gotten it if it wasn't for the other thread there.
                          You could have referenced the said edition. It was a good read. Not_simple cowboy idiocy, but gray areas.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            Tell us, BB, at what point is it appropriate to pull a CB in flight?

                            Follow the checklist, then use your Captain's authority to do what ever the hell you have to do to get her on the ground!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                              Follow the checklist, then use your Captain's authority to do what ever the hell you have to do to get her on the ground!
                              I have no problem with that. What I'm talking about is monkeying with CB's that have nothing to do with checklists or imminent danger.

                              And a pandemic lack of vital knowledge up there.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X