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Thread: AP: Cubana Crashes on Takeoff From Havana

  1. #21
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel
    Is this real?
    If that was done at altitude and deliberately I'd say 'super awesome cool'.

    Looks like your basic flat spin- and consistent with engine failure and speed loss.

    I actually think I've done this on MSFS YEARS AGO. Take off, click mouse on one power lever, pull it pack.

    MSFS may not simulate control FEELS and attitude feelings, but the planes act somewhat realistically.

    In spite of my great Internet knowledge base and basic skills and Mom's basement keyboard confidence...I nosed over, but fought to maintain altitude with careful, measured pull ups...

    BUT

    ...speed slipped away, the stick shaker sound ensued and then the plane simply went to hell (all at an altitude where you have enough time to say, crap, I guess I didn't maintain speed).

    Yeah, sure there could have been a control problem here...but maybe not.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The plane is seen at the very edge of the frame and these CCTV camera are often using low quality aspheric wide angle lenses that produced optical anomalies at their periphery. It might be possible that the combination of the steep turn away from the camera and some lens distotion are creating the illusion that it is flying backward when it is simply coming no closer. That's all I can come up with.
    Agree. After watching it n times in slomo I think that the plane is flying basically towards the camera with an increasing yaw/sideslip. I think that it is not so much the distortion of the camera as the fact that whomever is filming that monitor is zooming and panning as the sequence develops, so the motion of the plane in our PC screen is a composition of the motion of the plane in the CCTV monitor + the motion of the CCTV monitor in our PC screen.

    I know that there exists software that can take fixed points of reference in the video and keep the zoom and pan fixed and stabilize the image. Perhaps someone in this forum knows how to do it and can use the text on the screen (especially the "Vie" which by the way means "Fri") to produce a stabilized image where the only thing moving is the plane.

    Certainly looks like an (accelerated?) stall though.
    I tend to disagree here. It is not easy to tell, but I have the impression that we have an uncontrollable yaw first, then roll, only then stall.

    Rudder hard-over? Reverser deployment? Simply not keeping it above Vmc after an engine failure?

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  3. #23
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    As a side note, it is amazing that 3 persons survived that initially. Unfortunately 2 of them succumbed to their injuries 4 and 6 days after the crash. So we have only one survivor left. I hope she recovers.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Rudder hard-over? Reverser deployment? Simply not keeping it above Vmc after an engine failure?
    Or overcontrol. Stomping on the rudder instead of "squeezing" it (perhaps due to unfamiliarity with OEI rudder handling on big twinjets).

    Or just about anything, if these reports about the quality of airmanship and maintenance are accurate.

    Can you map out a hypothetical sequence for falling under vmca? This was a pretty full flight so I assume Vr was in the neighborhood of 140kts and vmcg was around 110kts, and I assume the good engine (assuming engine failure here) was left at TO thrust (or at least MCT). Can you guesstimate vmca here?

  5. #25
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    I don't say that I only accept wikipedia as a source for incidents.

    But most of the time we can be sure, when wikipedia administrators accept an aviation incident as a new topic, then there has happened something. They even seem to have developed a special aviation incident layout. This is what I mean:

    A CU-B732adv. crashed. CU Flight # 972 .

    I'm not quite sure about the IATA code. It seems as if CU ordered the flight somewhere else. But imho, either your subcontractor is as good as you, or you must operate this flight with an a/c which belongs to your fleet.
    And that should be true for CU, for KL, for LH, ...

    So, in my eyes, it is a CU flight. Anno domini 2015, it was also the LH CEO and me, who almost mentally died after all what had happened in that year..

    PS: Since I am a jetphotos forum member, I always wonder how people measure distances. It is an en wiki article, so how do they measure the distances. In kilometers, of course.
    I'd say, the CU-B732adv. crashed almost within the boundary fence of MUHA airport (Havana), within 5.39 nautical miles East of the MUHA 06 rwy.

    Sunglasses for sad eyes.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. Almost a decade here on this platform.

  6. #26
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    As a side note, it is amazing that 3 persons survived that initially. Unfortunately 2 of them succumbed to their injuries 4 and 6 days after the crash. So we have only one survivor left. I hope she recovers.
    Oh it so very much reminds me of the year 2015! Back then, they also published a list with passenger nationalities. So, 2 people from Argentina were on board the CU-B732adv.

    But at least wikipedia says, they have not survived.

    Yes. Only 1 survivor, as of today. Nationality: Cuba. And you know, she's female? - Well. All the very best!
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. Almost a decade here on this platform.

  7. #27
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    [...]
    I actually think I've done this on MSFS YEARS AGO. Take off, click mouse on one power lever, pull it pack.

    MSFS may not simulate control FEELS and attitude feelings, but the planes act somewhat realistically.

    In spite of my great Internet knowledge base and basic skills and Mom's basement keyboard confidence...I nosed over, but fought to maintain altitude with careful, measured pull ups...

    BUT

    ...speed slipped away, the stick shaker sound ensued and then the plane simply went to hell (all at an altitude where you have enough time to say, crap, I guess I didn't maintain speed).

    Yeah, sure there could have been a control problem here...but maybe not.
    Hello my friend.

    You mention your mom in combination with a computer. I don't say that this is impossible. But for me, it was my father. He bought the first computer for the family. And you mention msfs, which I still use today (version X). But when was your happening?
    Msfs was invented in 1982. So, you seem to be younger than I first thought. Who would mention his mother in the year 1982, in combination with her computer. A 16 year-old, as I assume..
    As I always say, I don't care about how old we are. One fact is, I haven't used something like the Logitech Flight Yoke System either.

    Even without such a bigger joystick, Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator is able to give me alot.

    So, what do we say if it was engine failure and speed loss? - Afaik, two things are for sure.
    1. A B757 and a B737 is, like all passenger jets with two engines that I know (e.g. A320), able to climb with one engine.
    2. Professional pilots in a passenger jet use more than only Randazzo's B737 simulator, which I call semi-pro.

    For professional pilots there are professional simulators (only used by professional pilots). In such a simulator you're able to fly through situations, where even LH would say, if we'd try this in a real jet, that's too expensive...

    That's what simulators are good for.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. Almost a decade here on this platform.

  8. #28
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    ***You mention your mom in combination with a computer.***
    That was self deprecating humour. People will joke that overly 'knowledgeable' internet experts are often, actually unemployed losers who live in their parents' basement.

    I am guilty of attempting to be knowledgeable - a plane CAN be flown on one engine. But I found it to be rather challenging. Maybe that's why planes sometimes crash after engine failures- even though the math says 'flyable'.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  9. #29
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    That was self deprecating humour. People will joke that overly 'knowledgeable' internet experts are often, actually unemployed losers who live in their parents' basement.

    I am guilty of attempting to be knowledgeable - a plane CAN be flown on one engine. But I found it to be rather challenging. Maybe that's why planes sometimes crash after engine failures- even though the math says 'flyable'.
    LOL. You know who Little Bob is? He's the reason why I rather like to read you. But after all, in a quiet moment he told me his year of construction. I only wanna say that much, he's old enough to know one or two things about aviation, old enough to write about it in the internet, and,
    at least as I assume, he does no longer sleep in his mother's bed.

    LOL! That's also true for seahawk. Or for me.

    Good that we can laugh again, after what happened to that CU-B732adv. ...
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. Almost a decade here on this platform.

  10. #30
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    'Knowledgeable' people don't necessarily have to be bad people. But envy is a bad attitude. And if you ask me, after four decades in Germany, this country is full of envy!
    "How is he able to.." or "Why does he know..." is one of the worst German problems.

    My opinion? Common sense does not only appear in the richest families or in the highest political circles. Sometimes I think just the opposite is the case...!

    PS: Only a few hours ago, there was a documentation on German TV, "Why Hitler lost the War.". I don't know if he was really stupid or insane. Fact is, he was not able to stay nine years at school, thus, he never graduated from school. But then, they showed how Adolf, who infact never was more (and due to education never could be more) than a "Gefreiter", treated "his" Generals. As if they were stupid or insane. Hitler must have thought that Washington is an unimportant village. Thus, Hitler declared war on the United States of America.

    In more than 1 case, "knowledgeable" is the contrast to the highest political circles.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. Almost a decade here on this platform.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Or overcontrol. Stomping on the rudder instead of "squeezing" it
    I don't think so, unless the overcontrol consisted on stomping the rudder towards the dead engine, and in that case I would not call it overcontrol.

    Can you map out a hypothetical sequence for falling under vmca? This was a pretty full flight so I assume Vr was in the neighborhood of 140kts and vmcg was around 110kts, and I assume the good engine (assuming engine failure here) was left at TO thrust (or at least MCT). Can you guesstimate vmca here?
    I can't

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    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  12. #32
    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    It's been raining in Miami for a whole week now!

  13. #33
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I don't think so, unless the overcontrol consisted on stomping the rudder towards the dead engine, and in that case I would not call it overcontrol.
    From what I've read, stomping on the rudder away from the dead engine can overpower the thrust assymetry and get you into serious trouble. That's a powerful rudder.

    I'm actually leaning towards #2 reverser deployment though. If those old target reversers are not fully stowed, aerodynamic forces can deploy them.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I can't
    You might find this interesting:

    https://www.avioconsult.com/download...%20Failure.pdf

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    'Knowledgeable' people don't necessarily have to be bad people. But envy is a bad attitude. And if you ask me, after four decades in Germany, this country is full of envy!
    "How is he able to.." or "Why does he know..." is one of the worst German problems.

    My opinion? Common sense does not only appear in the richest families or in the highest political circles. Sometimes I think just the opposite is the case...!

    PS: Only a few hours ago, there was a documentation on German TV, "Why Hitler lost the War.". I don't know if he was really stupid or insane. Fact is, he was not able to stay nine years at school, thus, he never graduated from school. But then, they showed how Adolf, who infact never was more (and due to education never could be more) than a "Gefreiter", treated "his" Generals. As if they were stupid or insane. Hitler must have thought that Washington is an unimportant village. Thus, Hitler declared war on the United States of America.

    In more than 1 case, "knowledgeable" is the contrast to the highest political circles.

    So let me get this straight, The Mexican pilots were watching a German television documentary about Adolf Hitler while they were taking-off and that's why they crashed? I didn't see that in any of the articles published over here. See the press here really is "fake" news. They never tell us the real poop!

  16. #36
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    From what I've read, stomping on the rudder away from the dead engine can overpower the thrust assymetry and get you into serious trouble. That's a powerful rudder.
    Home base: "The stupid pilots messed up".

    If I flew a plane (or rode a bicycle) I would NEVER make a mistake nor crash.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  17. #37
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    Gabriel, have you read through this link yet?

    https://www.avioconsult.com/download...%20Failure.pdf

    It may have nothing to do with this accident but it is very interesting in understanding how Vmca is calculated by engineers (looking to minimize the fin dimension while adhering to the FARs) and how they arrive at the speed publishd in the AFMs. I've always thought Vmca was a constant value, indifferent to weight, and this is true with wings level, but to accomplish design goals the AFM values are calculated using a slight bank angle of 3-5° to allow for minimum slideslip and thus lower drag, and with the bank angle weight does become a factor (lowering the Vmca as weight increases when banking toward the dead engine; increasing the Vmca when banking away from the dead engine. The other interesting thing is how with bank angle toward the dead engine in excess of 5°, speed must increase sharply to avoid fin stall. Read through it. I'd like to get the engineer's interpretation of this.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Gabriel, have you read through this link yet?
    Yes. I need more time to write an answer. I have some deadlines now so this will need to wait for a while.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  19. #39
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Here is a quick way to give a complete answer.
    I 100% endorse the following video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r4Kxf_G9y4

    It is much better than the "paper"you linked that seems to mix heading, yaw and sideslip.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  20. #40
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Here is a quick way to give a complete answer.
    Quick?

    The dissertation poster links to an hour long video and calls it quick?

    That being said, it does appear complete! (and you are consistent)

    /friendly razz.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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