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Thread: Alitalia

  1. #1
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Default Alitalia

    I have seen that somebody this year (2018_) already wrote an entry concerning Alitalia. Back then in February, he stated that at Fiumicino they'll delete long haul destinations.

    But since near LIMJ we can observe a huge bunch of shredded concrete, which was not there in February, I have tried to understand what has happened to the (former) Italian flag carrier. This topic btw originally was the reason why I am here in the forum today.

    With Alitalia, It goes way deeper than only a smaller long haul schedule since February 2018.
    I did what I always like to do, I opened the German wiki for Alitalia. And what did I find.

    "Alitalia hat im Mai 2017 Insolvenz angemeldet." In English: "Alitalia has published bankruptcy in May 2017." Period. That was the first time when my mouth stood open. That was completely new for me!

    Alitalia (est. 1946), together with LH once a founding member of the 747 club (between 1970 and 2002), is bankrupt!

    The Italian government has tried to ensure all AZ flights in 2018, but as far as I know, nobody until today has guaranteed only 1 Alitalia flight in October 2018! The beginning of October today is not much more than four or five weeks away.

    I open this topic to find out when the golden years for Alitalia have ended. And why. Not in 2002, when they decided to leave the 747 club. That's too easy.

    But in 2005, they decided to close the one and only school for pilots who later have become Alitalia airliner pilots, in Alghero (Sardegna). That in my eyes seems like the beginning of all Evil. Where since then were new Alitalia airliner pilots able to learn their profession. Or has the Alitalia offspring ceased to exist after 2005.
    A dark mystery.

    And what Alitalia tried to do with the people in Milano since 1998, is also not the finest Italian manner, to stay harmless. First of all, big intercontinental traffic, with a completely new Terminal (T1, west of the rwys). But where is this big intercontinental traffic at MXP today? It is still there, but no longer in the hands of Alitalia.
    So, they decided with a seeing eye to leave all these slots for the competitors? Are they serious at Alitalia?!

    I mean, I'm the last one who would complain. MXP T1 works very well for me.

    But I don't know if the Alitalia as known since 1946 will survive longer than September 2018. With today only 3 (three!) Alitalia destinations at MXP, I fear that they will not.

    To be continued.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Alitalia - Always Late In Takeoff, Always Late In Arrival.

    Who cares. It’s hard to summon any sympathy. The airline was always a job preservation club for employees. It should be understood also that the current Alitalia really has no relationship with the traditional Alitalia which has effectively long disappeared. In years past I suffered from grossly delayed and cancelled flights and resolved never to use them again. I’m sure I wasn’t the only one. If you travel around major European airports today, you don’t see Alitalia as much. They’ve been swamped by easyJet, Ryanair, Vueling and others.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalcyonDays View Post
    Alitalia - Always Late In Takeoff, Always Late In Arrival.

    Who cares. It’s hard to summon any sympathy. The airline was always a job preservation club for employees. It should be understood also that the current Alitalia really has no relationship with the traditional Alitalia which has effectively long disappeared. In years past I suffered from grossly delayed and cancelled flights and resolved never to use them again. I’m sure I wasn’t the only one. If you travel around major European airports today, you don’t see Alitalia as much. They’ve been swamped by easyJet, Ryanair, Vueling and others.
    As I said, I fear that they'll survive no longer than September 2018, if not, yes, if not the on duty Alitalia CEO is so clever and accepts the one and only offer of really more than 1 US-Dollar. If the price for the whole Alitalia on one brighter day will be less than 50 US-Dollars, then I'll also publish an offer.

    But today, and September is only 7 days away, there is one European airline, who offers a little bit more than 50 US-Dollars, but with the background of one of only very few intercontinental airlines
    on this planet
    who still today operate the Boeing 747 passenger version.... !!

    And in contrast to one of my online jetphotos friends, I am not able to call the CEO of this airline "stupid". His name btw is Mr Carsten Spohr, Lufthansa CEO, still operator of one or two Boeing 747 jets ("passage" or passenger version").

    Now you can say again what you pm'ed me, Gabriel.

    PS: Halcyon, you share my opinion? That the golden years for the Alitalia which we knew ended in 2002, when they decided to leave the 747 club, after 32 years? It's a shame. And I'm really sad due to the history of this former flag carrier, which only ended after 32 years (AZ membership in the 747 club, 1970-2002).

    Major airports where the today very weak AZ still is accepted..? - EDDL, and LIRF. LIMC does no longer seem to be true, at Malpensa, which theoretically should be the second biggest airport for AZ, they today provide not more than 3 (three) destinations!

    Are all these airlines serious?! AB (1978-2017), AZ 747s (1970-2002),
    ... .. they all leave the sky when younger than me? I still feel younger than the Lufthansa CEO. Younger than the 747, younger than 50. This seems like an insult for the on duty Lufthansa CEO, but the difference is not so much, less than 12 years. Which I really would not mention if Spohr haven't gained a very big portion of my respect over the years.

    So, Rome, you are not stupid if you accept the offer.

    PS: Is an airline who no longer has an on duty CEO still an airline? - As I understand, the last on duty Alitalia CEO, Mr Cramer Ball, has left the sinking ship in Rome in April 2017. So, today Alitalia is bankrupt and without an on duty CEO?

    But there is someone who likes to reestablish the bridge!

    PS: This time without translation, because we are not stupid or are we: "Die deutsche Lufthansa bestätigte am 16. Oktober [2017] ein Angebot von rund 500 Millionen Euro für große Teile der insolventen Alitalia.."

    Rome, you only have to accept the offer. Siamo tuoi amici.

    And I can almost promise you, we try to save the Alitalia, almost as it is today, with Italian as the language on board, or even better. If the rwy is cleared for t/o, we can go around again, with all the AZ-B777 in an unaltered state.
    The AZ-B777 are not the first triple7s which General Spohr or I welcome in a completely unaltered livery... ... ! Ask Kloten, sometimes there is only

    One knight in shining armor.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    One of my very first ideas was the EDDL - LIMJ nonstop route. Today here we have Malpensa nonstop and Catania nonstop.

    So, why not either stretch it to EDDL - LIMC - LIMJ, or, which as I said, is one of my dream routes,

    EDDL - LIMJ nonstop, which as far as I know had never existed since I am an aviation enthusiast (since 1983), with Fontanarossa as the final approach.

    Lohausen - Sestri (SES) nonstop until today only exists in my simulator, and has become one of the standards for me. 417 nautical miles, the standard for me, where upon I calculate the Flight Level (FL), Top of Descent for each and every route which I have used since then in Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator...

    Siamo tuoi amici!

    PS: Something like a flight Milano - Sestri nonstop must've existed somewhen in aviation history, I am quite sure! Otherwise I'd not dream such wild dreams.
    And I've found one jetphoto, where the now old P. Kesternich showed his obsession, far away from home (!!), when he was young. How old is he today. Not younger than me, my rough guess. Here's the evidence:
    AZ-MD82 on my favorite airport, anno 1992, by P. Kesternich

    And, I am so thankful for this Jetphotos Database, one of the most Italian aviation photos, which is able to express how perfectly some a/c types and certain airports fit together. Sestri Ponente international airport, which Alitalia a/c type would you expect, between 1983 and 2012? We are not able to bring Alitalia back into the MD-82 club, but we know all the places, most of the Italian moments. And this in my eyes is one of the best moments in Italian aviation:

    AZ-MD82 during one of these Italian moments, uno espresso e Sestri Ponente aeroporto..

    Disperato romantico..
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    One of my very first ideas was the EDDL - LIMJ nonstop route.
    Mine was from Santo Mucho to Santo Poco nonstop with a Heron, 4 engines and all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    Mine was from Santo Mucho to Santo Poco nonstop with a Heron, 4 engines and all...
    I always try to use the ICAO codes. So, I don't think that you've mentioned two airports with ICAO codes. Let me tell you what I think.
    Santo Mucho, sounds like Spanish, one of the very rare languages which I do not use, besides German, American English, French and Italian (in descending order).

    Der heilige Reichtum?

    Let come back on topic. The Alitalia was member of the 747 club between 1970 and 2002. And in 2002, they did not only leave the 747 club, they also left the

    4 engines jet club. What does the today very weak Alitalia fly, after they left the MD82 club (in 2012) and the 4 engines jet club/747 club (in 2002)?

    - Well. A321 for the bigger European and Near East routes (LLBG). And which is the biggest bird which they still own?

    The AZ-B773ER. So, you can dream a dream of an Alitalia jet with four engines. But afaik, you are at least 16 years too late. I bet you had something like this in mind, didn't you:

    This is Alitalia night blue, on an AZ-B747-243B, July 1998

    But after 2002, the 747 were flown elsewhere. In Atlanta, Georgia?! And in Australia, in Great Britain, on Schiphol, and, by another founding member of the 747 club since 1970, not Alitalia (1970-2002) but...

    That's why I own the avatar which I own. Founding member of the 747 club since 1970. And still in the air!

    PS: You surely haven't yet read what I wrote for Halcyon as a visitor message, since his entry #2 here in this topic. But I can partly repeat it.
    At least since 2008, if you ask me and my home airport, the Alitalia has become weaker and weaker. And on one of my innumerable visits on my home airport, I was able to write down data, which normally only the EDDL atc's do collect. The scheduled time for departure, vs the time offblock, vs the real t/o time.
    The example was AZ #463 DUS-MXP during our EDDL winter schedule anno 2008. By then, they were theoretically able to operate flights to Malpensa. But I observed it with my own eyes, here at EDDL, the AZ 463 was delayed by 70 minutes, and that's true on a flight which is only 80 minutes long. The date of my observation at EDDL? - November 12th 2008.

    So if you ask me, since this day, the Alitalia urgently needs a knight in shining armor! And there is one. They only have to accept the offer.
    Siamo tuoi amici!

    The language on board will not be changed, that's what we are famous for. German, for the long gone Air Berlin flights. For the next case, we have to ask Alex. I'm here since almost a decade, and I observe the Swiss airline let's say since 1993, or since when our home airports are connected by Swiss, Alex.. But I never in my short life was a passenger on a Swiss airlines flight, not since 1978.

    So, only a rough guess, at Kloten they use German, English, and.. Italian as the languages on board?? We don't change the languages.

    So, the languages at Sestri, Malpensa, Fiumicino, Capodichino and Fontanarossa will be the same as on the Genova P.P. train station: Italian, and English.

    This is included in the offer. And, afaik, we are the only ones with such a comfortable offer!

    PS: "Ich mache ihm ein Angebot was er nicht ablehnen kann."
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Member ATLcrew's Avatar
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    What?

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    What?
    No problem. Let me explain it again.
    "Ich mache ihm ein Angebot was er nicht ablehnen kann." , this is a scene from 'The Godfather, part I" (USA 1972). You can correct me if it was not part I.

    Obviously, the since May 2017 bankrupt Alitalia indeed has rejected all serious offers that have been made since then, a.o. by Lufthansa.

    So, since more than one year, the Italian tax payer is responsible for all Alitalia flights, also if he or she never participates in one Alitalia flight in the years
    2017
    2018
    at all.

    The government of Italy has guaranteed for flights like AZ 421 DUS - FCO this thursday (today), with Italian tax money.

    This is ok. As that's not my money (I don't live in Italy). Otherwise, this topic would seem completely different...

    PS: What are they waiting for in Rome. As I've mentioned it earlier in this topic, my personal offer for Alitalia is yet less than what my favorite airline has published until today.
    And if you ask me, LH should also reduce the known offer!
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    That's supposed to be an explanation?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    That's supposed to be an explanation?
    No. As always when you and me are confronted with a problem which we can't solve with our own hands..

    This topic can't really be solved by pilots. So, what do you do. You think about it, and you forget about it, until..

    Yes. Until Spohr says 'No'. Lufthansa says no to Alitalia.

    Spohr mentioned a kind of commercial partnership between LH and AZ without that LH pays 1 $ . I don't know if he thought of such a rather big thing as Code Shares. Or much more simple, that we are allowed to keep this topic up and running for a while..
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  11. #11
    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    Santo Mucho to Santo Poco.....

    I love it !
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    Santo Mucho to Santo Poco.....

    I love it !
    Took ya a while.

  13. #13
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    Took ya a while.
    Yes. The older guys are not always that fast. Me included!!

    PS: And I respect men who definitely don't like to be quoted. I mean, we are (at least) two here on DUS. Should be enough if one of us
    (the younger one )
    is quoted from time to time..
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  14. #14
    Member mahagonny's Avatar
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    Sorry if it's in Italian, but it's a very lucid analysis

    https://www.glistatigenerali.com/gov...fqsTDKlCG9DrkQ

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahagonny View Post
    Sorry if it's in Italian, but it's a very lucid analysis

    https://www.glistatigenerali.com/gov...fqsTDKlCG9DrkQ
    That's why I love that language. Even a rather somber article reads just beautifully.

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