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Air Niugini plane misses runway, lands in sea off Micronesia island

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  • #91
    Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
    Table 4-2 confirms the accuracy of the table reproduced in the report. But to my untrained eye it does seem a little confusing, since the SINK-RATE PULL UP call-out is assigned a higher priority than an ALTITUDE call-out. Admittedly this isn't the same thing as a GLIDESLOPE call out though.
    It is not the same thing than the SINK-RATE call-out either.

    You have Sink rate Pull up in #2, Altitude call-out in #14, Sink Rate in #17 and Glide slope in #19.

    The priority makes sense to me. Any call including the words "pull up"should have priority over almost anything (except a stall warning and a reactive windshear warning where you have to look very closely at the speed and pulling up can be a problem).

    If you receive a pull up call, you should initiate an aggressive evasive maneuver to get all the climb you can from the airplane, so the altitude is not so important (you are going to climb as much as you can anyway).

    The altitude calls are a snapshot. It tells you that you are crossing a milestone. There is only one chance to get an altitude call. If it is missed because of a higher priority call, it can't be triggered later when you are not at that altitude anymore. So if you missed, you lost that part of input for situational awareness for good.

    The sink rate and glideslope calls are advisory caution messages and reflect a status. You normally don't receive a single glideslope or sink rate call because it takes some time bring the glide slope back to center or to reduce the sink rate. You may miss one instance of these calls to give room for an altitude call, but it is very likely that you will hav gotten or will have other such calls immediately before or after the altitude call, so situational awareness is not impacted. And in the unlikely event that the deviation from the glideslope or the exceedance of the sink rate is so short lived that you miss the only such call due to an altitude call, basally who cares. It was already corrected by when the altitude call is over, otherwise you would receive more instances of the call.

    There was only 1 altitude callout since the GPWS warnings started, the "100" call.
    Altitude callouts are not mandatory and are configurable by the airlines. I don't know what was the altitude callout schedule that this airline was using.

    The other question is why there wasn't a pull-up call if pull-up was displayed in red on the PFD.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #92
      Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
      They're sparring about who can do this aviationing blabber gooder.
      Ya think?

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        Altitude callouts are not mandatory and are configurable by the airlines. I don't know what was the altitude callout schedule that this airline was using.
        I'm thinking these annunciations were deactivated. Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          The other question is why there wasn't a pull-up call if pull-up was displayed in red on the PFD.
          PULL UP is displayed whenever the SINK RATE warning is active.

          SINK RATE PULL UP is triggered by severe (rather than excessive) descent rate. The descent rate was not severe enough to trigger this warning.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            PULL UP is displayed whenever the SINK RATE warning is active.

            SINK RATE PULL UP is triggered by severe (rather than excessive) descent rate. The descent rate was not severe enough to trigger this warning.
            May I ask where did you get that from? The only spec that I know is the TSO in the link posted by flashcrash, and a red "PULL UP" text warning seems to be incompatible with a caution (execssive) "SINK RATE" aural alert. Rather, the red "PULL UP" text warning is compatible with the aural warning "PULL UP" associated with severe sink rate.

            Ground Proximity Envelope 1, 2 or 3, Excessive Descent Rate, Class A & Class B

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              PULL UP is displayed whenever the SINK RATE warning is active.

              SINK RATE PULL UP is triggered by severe (rather than excessive) descent rate. The descent rate was not severe enough to trigger this warning.
              May I ask where did you get that from? The only spec that I know is the TSO in the link posted by flashcrash, and a red "PULL UP" text warning seems to be incompatible with a caution (execssive) "SINK RATE" aural alert. Rather, the red "PULL UP" text warning is compatible with the aural warning "PULL UP" associated with severe sink rate.

              • Ground Proximity Envelope 1, 2 or 3, Excessive Descent Rate, Class A & Class B
                • Caution
                  • Visual Alert: Amber text message that is obvious, concise, and must be consistent with the Aural message.
                  • Aural Alert:Sink Rate

                • Warning
                  • Visual Alert: Red text message that is obvious, concise and must be consistent with the Aural message.
                  • Aural Alert:Pull-Up

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Gabriel
                May I ask where did you get that from? The only spec that I know is the TSO in the link posted by flashcrash, and a red "PULL UP" text warning seems to be incompatible with a caution (execssive) "SINK RATE" aural alert. Rather, the red "PULL UP" text warning is compatible with the aural warning "PULL UP" associated with severe sink rate.

                Ground Proximity Envelope 1, 2 or 3, Excessive Descent Rate, Class A & Class B
                FCOM

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  FCOM

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]26789[/ATTACH]
                  Interesting. And it seems to match what was recorded in this accident.
                  So the 737's TAWS doesn't match the TSO?

                  Do you have that doc in the la link? I would like t see the rest of it.
                  And where does it come from? Boeing? An airline? PDMG? And for what version of the 737 is it? (the header just says 737)

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    Interesting. And it seems to match what was recorded in this accident.
                    So the 737's TAWS doesn't match the TSO?

                    Do you have that doc in the la link? I would like t see the rest of it.
                    And where does it come from? Boeing? An airline? PDMG? And for what version of the 737 is it? (the header just says 737)
                    It's from a Boeing FCOM for the B737 -600, -700, -800, -900.

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