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Thread: Lion Air 737-Max missing, presumed down in the sea near CGK (Jakarta)

  1. #1
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Default Lion Air 737-Max missing, presumed down in the sea near CGK (Jakarta)

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/li...29-p50cmu.html

    ADS-B looks like a sudden, steep dive. Doubtful outlook for survivors.

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    Senior Member B757300's Avatar
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    Was just coming here to post this. Doesn't sound optimistic that anyone survived.

    And losing a 737-8 MAX so early into its introduction will undoubtedly lead to speculation of a design flaw.

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    Senior Member B757300's Avatar
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    Seems most people are saying it is PK-LQP, 3 months old.

    https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9050423

    Bloomberg says 185 people on board.

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    sure looks like they were chasing a valid airspeed
    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/...310Z/WIII/WIKK
    moving quickly in air

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    Judging from the few images of the debris available currently, the largest recovered fragment appears to be an emergency escape slide.
    https://twitter.com/GerryS/status/1056743506113249280
    https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...fcc3621c5493ce

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Reportedly, called ATC to inform technical problems and request return back to the airport.

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    really think news outlets should NOT use Lion 904 pictures of it floating mostly intact in the water, giving relatives false hope, this plane completely disintegrated
    moving quickly in air

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    tech log comment from preceding flight: Airspeed unreliable and alt disagree shown after take off
    moving quickly in air

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    tech log comment from preceding flight: Airspeed unreliable and alt disagree shown after take off
    Clouds scattered to broken at 2000 to 2200 ft, visibility 5 miles, wind almost non-existent, daylight...

    It would be really disappointing if they lost it to unreliable sped or altitude.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    It would be really disappointing if they lost it to unreliable sped or altitude.
    It would be really unacceptable if pilots still can't handle this type of failure.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    sure looks like they were chasing a valid airspeed
    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/...310Z/WIII/WIKK
    Disconcur

    Heading and altitude are also all over the place.

    The plane "sort of" seems "totally" out of control.

    Edit- I retract this based on the radio call: [If there was no radio broadcast, I parlour speculate something nefarious.]

    How do you make a 737 go into alternate law / what's it doing now? [Edit, maybe you turn off the autopilot and have folks who haven't hand flown in true IMC on little tiny backup gauges].
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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    How do you make a 737 go into alternate law / what's it doing now? [Edit, maybe you turn off the autopilot and have folks who haven't hand flown in true IMC on little tiny backup gauges].
    So many ways... Other than the obvious rudder hard-over (to which the 737 MAX should not be susceptible), you have hydraulic failures, engine failures, stalls (why is it not going up if I have been pulling up all the time) and a vast list of etc. Now you mention IMC, but it looks like it was quite VMC, I mean, legal for VFR.

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    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    So many ways...
    BUT, there's so many backups? Look it's all on the table (including meteor strikes), but so strange for it to be "out of control". (Out of control = relative, not much stable flight there- albeit nothing too awfully wild until the end).

    And now you've taken spatial disorientation out of the equation.

    Yes, wait for a formal report.
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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    BUT, there's so many backups? Look it's all on the table (including meteor strikes), but so strange for it to be "out of control". (Out of control = relative, not much stable flight there- albeit nothing too awfully wild until the end).

    And now you've taken spatial disorientation out of the equation.
    I agree, it also called my attention the instability of the speed and altitude, followed by what seems to be a total loss of control. Obviously the problems to control the plane started way before the total loss of control. The fact that they seem to have been in VMC daylight makes it even stranger. Another strange thing is that apparently they called ATC with the return request just a couple of minutes after take off but then kept flying away 8 more minutes.

    I don't want to wait for the final report. We will probably have good (and bad) information coming since we have the previous crew that wrote the report, witnesses of the crash in a boat, the wreckage sie easily accessible, and the black boxes have already been located.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    How do you make a 737 go into alternate law / what's it doing now?
    The main difference in terms of flight control between the NG and the MAX is the FBW spoiler set-up. No primary flight controls on the MAX are governed by FBW 'laws', and the spoiler system is reportedly a relatively simple one. It has features such as an elevator jam assist mode that you wouldn't want malfunctioning, but I still can't find much detail about the system architecture.

    Another strange thing is that apparently they called ATC with the return request just a couple of minutes after take off but then kept flying away 8 more minutes.
    To me, that suggests a crew working checklists to deal with a problem that isn't requiring an immediate return.

    The ADS-B looks like there was either a significantly erratic autoflight behavior (ADIRU issue?) or it was being hand-flown either with difficulty or distraction (or both).

    AFAIK the MAX uses the same air data system as the NG.

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    From the BBC News site:

    The pilot is reported to have radioed air traffic control in Jakarta asking for permission to turn back, shortly after taking off.

    Now it has emerged that the plane had some technical problems on Sunday on its penultimate flight.

    "A technical log obtained by the BBC for that flight - from Denpasar airport in Bali to Jakarta - suggests that the airspeed reading on the captain's instrument was unreliable, and the altitude readings differed on the captain's and first officer's instruments.

    As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta."

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    Quote Originally Posted by pierpp View Post
    From the BBC News site:

    The pilot is reported to have radioed air traffic control in Jakarta asking for permission to turn back, shortly after taking off.

    Now it has emerged that the plane had some technical problems on Sunday on its penultimate flight.

    "A technical log obtained by the BBC for that flight - from Denpasar airport in Bali to Jakarta - suggests that the airspeed reading on the captain's instrument was unreliable, and the altitude readings differed on the captain's and first officer's instruments.

    As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta."
    it is a bit crazy that a malfunctioning speedometer will result in something like this. I know pilots are taught to trust their instruments, but what is the SOP if you suspect fault? Can’t pilots determine something is wrong when the dials indicate high airspeed with low throttle and corresponding engine speeds?

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    Was this a different crew from the prior flight of this craft? You would think that crew has been consulted about what issues they may have experienced, as is claimed by pax of that flight.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/previous-...023155494.html

  20. #20
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Hi X-speedy. We see your questions. The shortest answer all of them is "yes" there are various procedures for loss of instruments and for conveying maintenance stuff.

    The other thing to consider is "Most plane crashes should not occur, but when they do occur, something went wrong with the procedures that are designed so that nothing bad almost never happens".

    It's pretty remarkable, and often hard-to-believe circumstances.

    Fortunately, plane crashes almost never occur, except when they do occur.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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