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Thread: Air Astana serious control problems, request ditching, land safely

  1. #41
    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I think this incident makes a good case for split-able speedbrake levers though..
    Should we install that right over next to that TOPMS thingy?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I think the roll spoilers are more effective at high speeds.
    All controls are more effective at high speed but compared with and relative to the ailerons? Rudder the opposite.

    The spoilerons in particular.
    What? I've heard of flaperons, elevons, rudderons, rudderators and even elerudderons. But spoilerons? It's a first.

    [qupte]Also, spoilers create roll by creating drag, by dropping the onside wing, so they would be more hazardous at low speed/low altitude.[/quote]
    Whaaaat? The spoilers do create drag, yes, like any control surface that you stick into the wind. But that's not the mechanism how they create roll. The SPOILERS create roll by SPOILING the lift in the affected area, and the larger the deflection the more lift they spoil. Aw, let's be honest, they push air up so air pushed them down. Very much like the up-going aileron.
    So you may want to re think the "so" part of the sentence (take into account that there are planes that use spoilers as the ONLY means of roll control)

    I think this incident makes a good case for split-able speedbrake levers though... Some sort of guarded disconnect lever as we have on the yokes. Maybe more effective at low speed than differential thrust anyway...
    I was thinking split-able flaps..

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  3. #43
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    One other thought ... couldn't they just fly it through the autopilot? The yokes would be going the wrong way but rigging shouldn't affect autopilot...
    Well, that depends on what was the misrigging point and at what point the autopilot servos connect to the mechanism. But I would tend to think that, if the AP controls the ailerons, it would have been reversed too.

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  4. #44
    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    I am really surprised that no one has brought up R/C flying on this thread. When the A/C is flying towards you, left is right and right is left. Not easy for a real pilot to master, believe me I have tried. It has not ended well on all three occasions.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    What? I've heard of flaperons, elevons, rudderons, rudderators and even elerudderons. But spoilerons? It's a first.
    Assymetrical spoilers used for roll control. They've been around for quite a while, including on aircraft without ailerons.

    Whaaaat? The spoilers do create drag, yes, like any control surface that you stick into the wind. But that's not the mechanism how they create roll. The SPOILERS create roll by SPOILING the lift in the affected area, and the larger the deflection the more lift they spoil. Aw, let's be honest, they push air up so air pushed them down. Very much like the up-going aileron.
    The difference is that, with ailerons, one wing is decreasing in lift while the other is increasing in lift, so, for that reason alone, there shouldn't be an overall loss of altitude (Gabriellian physical hairsplitting aside). With spoiler control, one wing is decreasing lift with no corresponding increase in lift on the opposite wing, so a loss of altitude, from that reason alone, will occur. Thus, roll via spoilers alone at very low altitude comes with the caveat that, all other things being equal, the wing will drop lower to the ground than it would with roll via ailerons alone.

    I was thinking split-able flaps..
    A bit too slow in transit methinks.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    What? I've heard of flaperons, elevons, rudderons, rudderators and even elerudderons. But spoilerons? It's a first.
    I'm almost shocked.

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  8. #48
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I think I am not making myself clear,, so here it goes again, for the third time, with emphasis added
    I think I hear you.

    My comment is simply that they blew it. If I was supposed to check for correct controls, that depiction is wrong AND hopefully I would not be a shithead and not notice.

    But instead of the dude staring at the wrong control indications and not registering, my money is that they blew it off or the guy didn’t really look... and that the habit of blowing through “free only” might have fueled his sloppiness.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    “I don’t need to know how it works."

    We're all doomed.

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    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    “I don’t need to know how it works."

    We're all doomed.
    guess we can add untied to the list of airlines you won't fly, eh?

    i actually agree with your sarcasm. perhaps this guy is gunning for a job at boeing...

  11. #51
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    guess we can add untied to the list of airlines you won't fly, eh?
    They were already on my avoid-at-all-costs-list. But so is Newark.

    See: The United Debarcle

    https://forums.jetphotos.com/showthr...nited-debarcle

  12. #52
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    I think I hear you.

    My comment is simply that they blew it. If I was supposed to check for correct controls, that depiction is wrong AND hopefully I would not be a shithead and not notice.

    But instead of the dude staring at the wrong control indications and not registering, my money is that they blew it off or the guy didn’t really look... and that the habit of blowing through “free only” might have fueled his sloppiness.
    If you there is one single time where you better check that the controls are free AND CORRECT, it is after a major maintenance. If they didn't do it (as apparently the didn't), that unforgivable and inexcusable. (and you know what this little dot means).

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  13. #53
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    [Spoilerons are] Asymmetrical spoilers used for roll control.
    But you said:

    I think the roll spoilers are more effective at high speeds. The spoilerons in particular.
    So are the spoilerons a subset within the roll spoilers (which is the name I've always seen) or what?

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  14. #54
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    I am somewhere in the middle, or in both sides at the same time:

    - Yes, pilots need to know about the MCAS. If the trim wheel starts to crank by itself, the pilots should be left to wonder "what it is doing now" because we did not tell them about this little detail.
    - Trim runaway can happen for a number of reasons. MCAS activate by a wrong AOA indication is only one of them. When there is a trim runaway, whatever the reason, pilot are expected to recognize it and apply the EXISTING procedures that are THE SAME in the MAX than in the NG. Fly the plane first, make the diagnostic later. Apparently doing the trim runaway procedure would have worked ok in this case. They could have used the trim switch in the yoke to temporarily stop the trim motion and apply corrective trim as needed, then they could and should have used the trim cutout switches to turn off the trim motor, and even they could have grabbed the trim wheel to make it stop and turn it manually in the direction they needed. They did not need to know about the MCAS to do any of that.

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  15. #55
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    But you said:


    So are the spoilerons a subset within the roll spoilers (which is the name I've always seen) or what?
    I would put 'spoilerons' in the subset of spoilers that deploy in place of ailerons, while the larger set 'roll spoilers' are all spoilers that deploy to either augment ailerons or in place of them.

    But maybe they are all considered spoilerons.

  16. #56
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    If they didn't do it (as apparently the didn't), that unforgivable and inexcusable. (and you know what this little dot means).
    Point taken BUT the little dot is premature.

    It has happened before; it will probably happen again.

    Ask ITS...remember the Gulfstream? which you said didn’t need control locks.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Preliminary report out.

    http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/wwwbase/wwwi...te=WebSiteMenu

    Nothing super surprising. Maintenance screwed up by mis-routing the aileron cables (helped by instructions that were not super clear) and then let the issue slip through several layers of Swiss cheese that should have detected it. Finally the flight crew didn't detect it either in the pre-flight checks although it is not very clear how detectable it was.

    I still don't understand how they survived. And I am not talking about the several times they lost control that they suffered when they were already at altitude but how they didn't just crash right after lift-off.

    Whatever they had for breakfast, I want some. It gave them either extreme brilliancy or extreme luck (or both).

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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post

    I still don't understand how they survived. And I am not talking about the several times they lost control that they suffered when they were already at altitude but how they didn't just crash right after lift-off.

    Whatever they had for breakfast, I want some. It gave them either extreme brilliancy or extreme luck (or both).
    When you're flying for Make Benefit The Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan, nothing can harm you. (you may or may not get the reference).

  19. #59
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    When you're flying for Make Benefit The Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan, nothing can harm you. (you may or may not get the reference).
    His wife was killed by a bear, so not sure whether the "nothing can harm you" is a fair proclamation (although, admittedly, she was not flying).

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    In former Soviet republics, you do not fly airplane: airplane flies you.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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