Sully

[brianw999]

We also need to remember that Sully was a very highly qualified glider pilot and instructor which undoubtably added to the success of the Hudson River landing.

[Gabriel]

We also need to remember that Sully was a very highly qualified glider pilot and instructor which undoubtably added to the success of the Hudson River landing.

I argued this before, but again I think that the critical role that Sully played was the brilliant decision making (and call brace for impact). Once you are committed to ditching, the only thing you need to do is keep gliding with enough excess speed to be able to flare, bleed the excess speed, and "land" on water, and that doesn't require a lot of skills or specific training (and Sully was good but did not excel in this regard). What else are you going to do? Nose it into the water? Bank a wing into the water? Try to climb and stall?

[Evan]

I argued this before, but again I think that the critical role that Sully played was the brilliant decision making (and call brace for impact). Once you are committed to ditching, the only thing you need to do is keep gliding with enough excess speed to be able to flare, bleed the excess speed, and "land" on water, and that doesn't require a lot of skills or specific training (and Sully was good but did not excel in this regard). What else are you going to do? Nose it into the water? Bank a wing into the water? Try to climb and stall?

This is, of course, a strictly speed-on-elevator scenario, meaning to maintain or increase speed you must give up altitude at a time when you are trying desperately to stay aloft, to buy a bit more time, every precious second, in the hope that your F/O is going to get one of those engines back before you have to do the almost unthinkable and put it in the river. By the time they were committed to the river, the only hope of avoiding that fate was to get an engine back and I suspect that was still a hope up until Sully asked the F/O is he had any other ideas. At that point they were well below VLS and too low to 'accelerate'. I think this has to be considered when judging him on the speed issue (and the flaps issue).

[Gabriel]

I don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind. Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed. One problem also was that he flared too high and when the excess speed disappeared, he could not keep the plane "floating" along the river while slowly descending. If I remember correctly (but don't quote me on this), during the flare he actually achieved a sink rate that was lower than the one at touchdown.

In any event, again, he did keep enough sped (even if below VLS) to flare, he did not touch down with 2500 fpm or I don't know how much that he had in the glide, and he touched down with a good attitude, absolute minimum forward speed (which is also very important because that's how much energy you are carrying and the level of destruction in an accident depends on that and on how quickly it dissipates) and yes with a sink rate that it was just a bit too much, but would have counted as a normal landing if he had wheels and tarmac below. If you ask me I will say again that he did it well enough. Could it have been better? The answer to that is always yes regardless of how good it was.

What I wanted to point out is that, after committing to ditch in the river, every pilot (ok make it most) would have done something very similar to what Sully did: glide, flare and touch down as slowly as possible (in both axis). And that doesn't require any special skills (except maybe a psychological skill to not freak out) that is not required to hand-fly the plane in normal circumstances. So that part of the story is not what tells Sully apart from other pilots and puts him in a special category (call it hero, hotshot, ace or whatever). I cannot say that most pilots would not have kept pushing for La Guardia. ANd that's what tells Sully apart.

IMHO.

[Chris K]

In any event, I always highlight this, the question is not if there is any field within reach, but if there is any field that YOU KNOW is within reach. Deviating from a 2nd best option (other than a field) to aim for a field that you THINK MAYBE you can reach only to later find yourself unable to reach the field OR the 2nd best option is a typical killer in these situations. The greatness of Sully's decision making is that, with several fields around that MAYBE he could reach (he just didn't know), he made the decision that he was going to total his plane and put it in the longest and widest smooth surface that HE KNEW he could reach. This is a VERY difficult decision for a pilot, it's hard to admit that you will end up in an off-airport crash and concentrate on finding the best way to crash rather than still trying to reach an airport (and risk a worse crash). Even if the simulator tests showed that after the 35, 55 or whatever number of seconds one airport was still within reach, that is of zero value to analyze the pilot's actions. Hindsight of simulator test showing that "you could have made it to this airport" can only be replied with "well, why didn't you tell me that back then?".

That was a great post. One of the best I've ever read on here or anywhere. Thank you!

[Evan]

I don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind.

Not 'slowing down to stay aloft'; preserving pitch to stay aloft—which, in the absence of power, has the side effect of slowing down—while focused on where to land more than airspeed. A subliminal act of self-preservation perhaps. My point is that his goal at that point might have been to get an engine back rather than ditch. Glider pilots do not have this goal to contend with.

Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed.

VLS is the lowest selectable speed allowed by the autopilot. It's just used as a reference in the report, since, in manual flight, you can fly below it without stalling. But he was in the alpha protect regime for the last 150ft, 15-19kts below VLS. There isn't a lot of excess speed there. The problem was that he only had enough speed to EITHER not stall OR flare to arrest the vertical speed (and thus stall). Since the logic prevented him from stalling (I'm not saying he would have), he managed to only flare enough to REDUCE the vertical speed to that of a survivable landing. The ideal is to come in faster, flare to ARREST the vertical speed and then bleed off the excess airspeed in the float, and let the aircraft settle into the water as the lowest possible ground speed.

What "tells Sully apart" is that he achieved a survivable landing where other pilots may have ended up in the approach lights to LGA or a housing project or in a cartwheel across the Hudson. Again, I agree with you on that.

[3WE]

Some historical context from an aviation forum.

https://forums.jetphotos.com/showthread.php?57864-Sulley-the-Movie&highlight=Sully

[ATLcrew]

That was a great post. One of the best I've ever read on here or anywhere. Thank you!

No worries, there are plenty more where that came from.

[LH-B744]

Some historical context from an aviation forum.

https://forums.jetphotos.com/showthr...ighlight=Sully

Thank You for that message. I just thought, oh yea, who has finally removed the 'e' from that topic title..

[LH-B744]

Not 'slowing down to stay aloft'; preserving pitch to stay aloft—which, in the absence of power, has the side effect of slowing down—while focused on where to land more than airspeed. A subliminal act of self-preservation perhaps. My point is that his goal at that point might have been to get an engine back rather than ditch. Glider pilots do not have this goal to contend with.
[...]
What "tells Sully apart" is that he achieved a survivable landing where other pilots may have ended up in the approach lights to LGA or a housing project or in a cartwheel across the Hudson. Again, I agree with you on that.

Let's assume that he only 'fluffed' and he did not really try to tell us that we should pull the yoke to stay aloft.. As far as I can remember, on June 1st 2009 one pilot on board an Airbus A330-200 tried something like that, and he was not really successful.. So thanks for your entry #21 . Avoiding misunderstandings in the cockpit is crucial, imho.

[Evan]

Let's assume that he only 'fluffed' and he did not really try to tell us that we should pull the yoke to stay aloft.. As far as I can remember, on June 1st 2009 one pilot on board an Airbus A330-200 tried something like that, and he was not really successful.. So thanks for your entry #21 . Avoiding misunderstandings in the cockpit is crucial, imho.

Did I say anything about pulling up? You are gliding while trying to relight an engine. Think of your altimeter as a fuel gauge and the column as the thrust lever. You don't reverse thrust by pulling back, but you don't push anymore than necessary to remain in the envelope. Maybe that means going south of green dot to buy a few more critical seconds of restart procedure. You're still in the envelope and really not thinking about flare at that point. Maybe you fly it all the way down that way, hoping for a miraculous engine recovery up until the point where you ask your F/O if he has any other ideas, and THEN you commit your focus to landing in the river, at which point there is not enough 'fuel' left in the 'tank' to get the speed back up. Just a theory but it seems pretty human to me, just as it seems unfair to compare this situation to a typical glider landing.

[LH-B744]

Again, No.

But you somehow tried to .. I really tried to avoid this impression, but you seem to insist.. you somehow tried to correct what Gabriel said just a few entries before. Don't say you didn't.

Gabriel said something like 'Chesley Sullenberger III. slowed down his A320 to stay aloft.' We should not forget about whom we're talkin here. And if you give me a minute, I'm able to find what Gabriel said exactly..

Probably that's one of my mistakes, I always try to understand what one of my friends say by inserting my understanding of it. So if Gabriel did not mean 'pull the yoke', what did he mean.

I should ask himself. But first of all, let me find his entry.. one second.

[LH-B744]

I don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind. Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed. One problem also was that he flared too high and when the excess speed disappeared, he could not keep the plane "floating" along the river while slowly descending. If I remember correctly (but don't quote me on this), during the flare he actually achieved a sink rate that was lower than the one at touchdown.

In any event, again, he did keep enough sped (even if below VLS) to flare, he did not touch down with 2500 fpm or I don't know how much that he had in the glide, and he touched down with a good attitude, absolute minimum forward speed (which is also very important because that's how much energy you are carrying and the level of destruction in an accident depends on that and on how quickly it dissipates) and yes with a sink rate that it was just a bit too much, but would have counted as a normal landing if he had wheels and tarmac below. If you ask me I will say again that he did it well enough. Could it have been better? The answer to that is always yes regardless of how good it was.

What I wanted to point out is that, after committing to ditch in the river, every pilot (ok make it most) would have done something very similar to what Sully did: glide, flare and touch down as slowly as possible (in both axis). And that doesn't require any special skills (except maybe a psychological skill to not freak out) that is not required to hand-fly the plane in normal circumstances. So that part of the story is not what tells Sully apart from other pilots and puts him in a special category (call it hero, hotshot, ace or whatever). I cannot say that most pilots would not have kept pushing for La Guardia. ANd that's what tells Sully apart.

IMHO.

My two words for what you've written here?

he flared too high

1. Oh. Here we do have one forum member who knows it better than Chesley Sullenberger III. ... Really?!

I don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind.

2. Your very first sentence in this entry has at least one or two 'No' too much in it. I'm just having a discussion with Evan about what you had in your mind with this sentence.

I thought you meant, 'pulling the yoke' by 'slowing down'. And at the end of the day, you said, we must avoid to loose speed.

So finally, there is not really a discussion between you, Evan and me. Evan only tried to be precise, which is a good thing. He tried to write his entry without all to many 'no' in it, if I'm able to say in other words, what Evan said:
'Yes. Slowing down (e.g. by pulling the yoke) is a thing which we must avoid. Stable pitch trim, with a rather small AoA is important.'

My words. Almost.

[LH-B744]

As we all know since 3WE published the link to the 'ancient' topic 'Sully, still with an 'e'', I know 'Sully' the movie from the big screen (movie theater).

I don't quite remember if in the 'ancient' topic, I said enough about men who thought that they are better than Chesley Sullenberger III.

And when they left the professional A320 training simulator, here we don't talk about fsx, all of them (!) had to admit, Yes. Teterboro would have been the catastrophy, a touchdown not on the rwy, but next to it, and call it only inches. Sully was right.

Again, my golden star with a diamond, not only for his decision, but also for his ability to 1. find and 2. enforce this decision
within seconds.

[Evan]

I don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind. Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed. One problem also was that he flared too high and when the excess speed disappeared, he could not keep the plane "floating" along the river while slowly descending. If I remember correctly (but don't quote me on this), during the flare he actually achieved a sink rate that was lower than the one at touchdown.

Take a look at the attachment, from the FDR plots. There is an altitude 'bump' (black line) just before the final descent. This is when the airspeed really goes south. There is a coinciding span of about 20 seconds where the pitch command repeatedly surpasses 10°ANU. And synching the CVR to this, Sully is still directing his F/O to work the engines. This is followed by a pitch reduction and a resumed descent from about 200' ASL.

This is what makes me think Sully was still hoping to get relight on an engine and had sacrificed some airspeed in exchange for just a bit more time, either willfully or subconciously. As I said, it seems like a natural human instinct.

A glider pilot, on the other hand, could just maintain a steady glide path down to the flare, such as what you would get by staying at green dot.

What I'm saying is that the speed issue might not have been due to inattention or error, but was instead a calculated trade-off.