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Thread: 707 crashes after landing in wrong, too short runway

  1. #1
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Default 707 crashes after landing in wrong, too short runway

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4c2d9613&opt=2048

    A Saha Airlines Boeing 707-300 freighter, registration EP-CPP performing a freight flight from Bishkek (Kyrgyzstan) to Karaj (Iran) with 16 crew and a cargo of meat, was on approach to Karaj's Payam Airport's runway 30 (length 3660 meters/12,000 feet) when the crew descended towards and landed on Fath's airport 31L (official length 1070 meters/3510 feet), overran the runway, broke through an airport perimeter wall, crashed into houses past the end of the runway and burst into flames at about 08:30L (03:00Z). So far one survivor (the flight engineer) and 16 bodies have been recovered. One house was destroyed, a number of houses were damaged.

    Another aircraft had confused the same airports but gone around in time, see
    Incident: Taban MD88 at Karaj on Nov 16th 2018, went around from very low height at wrong airport
    .

    On Jan 17th 2019 the flight engineer, only survivor of the crash, gave a TV interview from his hospital bed. The flight engineer stated, that the landing was entirely normal, however, at the wrong airport. He stated (translation from Persion to English by a native Persian reader of AVH): "We followed normal procedure, and landed normally. Then all of the sudden we found ourselves at the end of the runway. It all happened so fast that there was no time for any kind of reaction, not even a shout or comment. No one said or did anything as we were all shocked by the suddenness of what was happening. I didn't feel anything after that. I regained consciousness a while later and found myself sandwiched between two bodies with fire approaching from behind. I couldn't move as my clothes were entangled in metal scraps. I saw a youngster trying to help outside the aircraft and shouted. He heard me and helped me out".

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    This is why we have magenta lines.

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    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This is why we have magenta lines.
    Not in a 707 you don't!

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Not in a 707 you don't!
    You know, I love the dials, so I hate to be the one to break this to you, but...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    You know, I love the dials, so I hate to be the one to break this to you, but...
    This is KC-135 Block 45 unveiled in 2017. Now show me a 707 with anything like that. Especially an Iranian one.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    This is KC-135 Block 45 unveiled in 2017.
    A rose by any other name. You know it's just a matter of time before we are all flying on glass-cockpit 707's.

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    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    You know, I love the dials, so I hate to be the one to break this to you, but...
    Once again you show what an ass you can be. That is an Air Force KC or EC. Converted to Glass! An old cargo 70 flying in that part of the world, come on be real and stop being a jerk.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Once again you show what an ass you can be. That is an Air Force KC or EC. Converted to Glass! n old cargo 70 flying in that part of the world, come on be real and stop being a jerk.
    Hmmm. UNLESS this was a KC-135 Block 45 CONVERTED to an Iranian freighter. We should wait for the report.

    My other point being, there are some upsides to the much maligned magenta line. With slap-on avionics becoming so cheap, why do pilots still fly without GPS nav displays?

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    Senior Member TeeVee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    why do pilots still fly without GPS nav displays?
    well, let's see, maybe it's because there has been an embargo prohibiting the export of airplane parts to iran for how long? even norwegian can't get parts to its stranded 737 in shiraz.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    well, let's see, maybe it's because there has been an embargo prohibiting the export of airplane parts to iran for how long? even norwegian can't get parts to its stranded 737 in shiraz.
    Yes, and I hear China is being very good about complying. If they can't get a Garmin, they can always get a Garminski or a Garhuawei. They all come from the same place.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Not in a 707 you don't!
    If you are born later than 1969, like me, our avatar at least is approx. as old as we are. Oh, I forgot one thing.

    From now on, I like to ask men who are older than me, if they like to be quoted. So.. tell me if you don't like it!

    Back on topic. It's not always true that our avatar is as old as we are. But it seems like a hint, doesn't it. In my case, I am eleven years older than my avatar, but pst, don't tell anybody [inauguration flight LH-B744: 1989].

    For the 707, we should ask a man who again was born one or two weeks before the inauguration flight of his beloved a/c type.

    If the question was, tell us the difference between a 1978 LH B747 and my avatar, I'd say, that's the difference between a 1978 clock shop (dt.: Uhrenladen) and the 'new' Apple office in downtown NYC, in the year 2019.

    That's definitely more than only the magenta line. PFD instead of attitude indicator clock, primary and secondary EICAS instead of... You know what I want to say.

    PS: You are old enough to know how a 1978 Boeing 747-200 cockpit looks like, aren't you. INS instead of fmc. But that doesn't mean that a B744 pilot is better than a B742 pilot. The opposite is true, if you ask me. Less fmc activity means, more brain activity. Which is not so bad.

    But the most important question here in this case, in my eyes. The commercial inauguration flight of the Boeing 707 happened in 1958. So, who in the last 60 years would have insisted on the 707,

    instead of the B744F or B748F or LH-MD11F , and why.

    Nevertheless, the magenta line is good if you are used to it, but if you had never used it, that can't be the reason for an accident.
    Last edited by LH-B744; 01-20-2019 at 05:52 AM. Reason: Find the mistake, PFD = attitude indicator clock, ND = HSI clock.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The airline code since a few weeks is no longer LH, but the operator stays the same on the DUS - NYC route ...

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    If you are born later than 1969, like me, our avatar at least is approx. as old as we are. Oh, I forgot one thing.

    From now on, I like to ask men who are older than me, if they like to be quoted. So.. tell me if you don't like it!

    Back on topic. It's not always true that our avatar is as old as we are. But it seems like a hint, doesn't it. In my case, I am eleven years older than my avatar, but pst, don't tell anybody [inauguration flight LH-B744: 1989].

    For the 707, we should ask a man who again was born one or two weeks before the inauguration flight of his beloved a/c type.

    If the question was, tell us the difference between a 1978 LH B747 and my avatar, I'd say, that's the difference between a 1978 clock shop (dt.: Uhrenladen) and the 'new' Apple office in downtown NYC, in the year 2019.

    That's definitely more than only the magenta line. PFD instead of attitude indicator clock, primary and secondary EICAS instead of... You know what I want to say.

    PS: You are old enough to know how a 1978 Boeing 747-200 cockpit looks like, aren't you. INS instead of fmc. But that doesn't mean that a B744 pilot is better than a B742 pilot. The opposite is true, if you ask me. Less fmc activity means, more brain activity. Which is not so bad.

    But the most important question here in this case, in my eyes. The commercial inauguration flight of the Boeing 707 happened in 1958. So, who in the last 60 years would have insisted on the 707,

    instead of the B744F or B748F or LH-MD11F , and why.

    Nevertheless, the magenta line is good if you are used to it, but if you had never used it, that can't be the reason for an accident.
    Okay then! I guess being born in 1952 qualifies me then? (Not that I think chronological age is the determining factor in ones ability to be a good pilot).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Hmmm. UNLESS this was a KC-135 Block 45 CONVERTED to an Iranian freighter. We should wait for the report.

    My other point being, there are some upsides to the much maligned magenta line. With slap-on avionics becoming so cheap, why do pilots still fly without GPS nav displays?
    Interestingly enough, ATC always refers to KC-135s as heavy 707, but they absolutely refuse to call P-8s 737s.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Hmmm. [COLOR="#0000FF"]My other point being, there are some upsides to the much maligned magenta line.
    Of course!!! There are a LOT of upsides. As long as you don't become a child of it.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Just to be clear, the accident aircraft was not a KC-135 but a 707 airframe and in fact one of the last to be built, delivered in 1976 to Iranian Air Force. I don’t believe the Iranians have ever operated any C-135 airframe in any guise.

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    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    Just to be even clearer, a KC-135 is NOT a 707, it's a 720.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Just to be even clearer, a KC-135 is NOT a 707, it's a 720.
    First I heard of that. The KC-135 and the B707 are the nearly identical offspring of the Dash-80. One went into the service and the other got a civilian job. The B720 was also a pax jet.

    The KC-135 is more nearly identical to the B720, I'll grant you that.

    Ok, enough about magenta lines in 707's. I thought I would get you on a technicallty but then you got me on a technicality. (Still I bet there are surviving 707's out there with a little aftermarket nav help plugged into the lighter socket).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Just to be even clearer, a KC-135 is NOT a 707, it's a 720.
    Not really. The 720 is a derivative of the 707, originally the 707-020, but renumbered 720 for United. The 707 and 720 are, crucially, the wider fuselage airframes (military designations C-137, E-3, E-6....), while the C-135 is a narrower fuselage airframe. The (K)C-135 carries the Boeing model number 717. Different airframe structures derived from the 367-80.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    With slap-on avionics becoming so cheap, why do pilots still fly without GPS nav displays?
    Avionics-slapping is kind of frowned upon by the FAA...
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by HalcyonDays View Post
    Not really. The 720 is a derivative of the 707, originally the 707-020, but renumbered 720 for United. The 707 and 720 are, crucially, the wider fuselage airframes (military designations C-137, E-3, E-6....), while the C-135 is a narrower fuselage airframe. The (K)C-135 carries the Boeing model number 717. Different airframe structures derived from the 367-80.
    With over 3000 hours in 707's and 720's, would you like to place a $$$ bet on that one? I also have about 3 dozen friend's that are ex KC, E-3 E-6 and E-8 drivers. And another 2 dozen from the 89th airlift wing.

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