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Thread: A380 - production ends in 2021

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    Member pawelm's Avatar
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    Default A380 - production ends in 2021

    Airbus announced today that because of low demand the production of A380 will end at 2021. It wasn't a pretty plane, but still, it's sad news...

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...-of-superjumbo

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    Member Jordan Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pawelm View Post
    Airbus announced today that because of low demand the production of A380 will end at 2021. It wasn't a pretty plane, but still, it's sad news...

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...-of-superjumbo
    Quite a quick production life for such an iconic aircraft. Personally I really liked the aircraft and the engineering achievements surrounding it, hopefully the ones that are still in service or due to enter before 2021 keep on flying for a good few years after production ends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Williams View Post
    Quite a quick production life for such an iconic aircraft. Personally I really liked the aircraft and the engineering achievements surrounding it, hopefully the ones that are still in service or due to enter before 2021 keep on flying for a good few years after production ends.
    Well, Emirates alone has over a hundred of them plus 19(?) still in order, so I don't think they will be able to replace them anytime soon

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    I governi franco-tedeschi, ad onta delle direttive dell'unione europea(che come noto non valgono per i francesi e per i tedeschi), hanno sovvenzionato un progetto nato già vecchio, non dal punto di vista tecnologico, ma dal punto di vista economico, solo ed esclusivamente per poter affermare il loro insulso ego e quella “grandeur” di cui soffrono soprattutto i francesi. Emblematica, da questo punto di vista, è la condanna da parte del WTO di UE, Germania, Francia e Spagna per i 22 miliardi di dollari che hanno concesso in 10 anni ad Airbus, riconoscendo che questi aiuti hanno generato un "danno reale e sostanziale" alla rivale Boeing. I sussidi riguardano i progetti A300, A310, A320, A330/A340, A330-200, A340-500/600 e A380.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    With the A380 being phased out of passenger service, will we see freight conversions picking them up or does something make them unsuitable for that role?

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    Senior Member Peter Kesternich's Avatar
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    Since there is no dedicated freight version of the A380, this is also mean there is no ground equipment to handle them as a freighter. I doubt that it will be economical to convert them PLUS invent and invest in completely new ground handling equipment just for one aircraft type. Also, two 777F have the same number of engines as an A380 and give the operator much more flexibility.

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    With the A380 being phased out of passenger service, will we see freight conversions picking them up or does something make them unsuitable for that role?
    For sure no as long as you have enough 747's to satisfy that demand. Interesting articles about this posted there.

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    Putting the flight deck on the lower deck probably didn’t help freight conversion potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HalcyonDays View Post
    Putting the flight deck on the lower deck probably didn’t help freight conversion potential.
    That's true. Now, the floor in the A380 is a structural element needed to support the pressure vessel, so you will need to keep both decks separated. Perhaps it would be possible to make it front-loading in the upper deck, and perhaps even putting an elevator to lower the cargo from there to the lower deck. Of course that would be terribly expensive, but it gets worse: While the A380 has much more volume than the 747, it does not have much more useful load. Meaning that you would be able to carry very big things as long as they are not very heavy. And then you start to think why Boeing is not building more DreamLifters, a plane that already exists and is certified and flying, and realize that the A380F will never exist.

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    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    The cost of conversion to the aircraft would be enormous but the cost of development and production of ground equipment to facilitate the loading would surely be astronomical ?
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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    World's biggest water-bomber?

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    Senior Member B757300's Avatar
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    Interesting article on Forbes about the A380.

    Airbus just announced that it would stop producing its Superjumbo A380.

    It's an outcome that rival Boeing anticipated about 25 years ago when it outplayed Airbus with a brilliant bit of judo strategy (using Airbus's strength against itself), according to my 2008 book, You Can't Order Change: Lessons from Jim McNerney's Turnaround at Boeing.

    To be sure, I've flown in the A380 to Dubai a few times and found the Emirates flight to be very comfortable -- even in economy class.

    On February 14, Airbus announced that with Emirates orders tapering off, it would stop making A380s in 2021, according to the Wall Street Journal.

    But the very existence of the A380 was a product of Boeing cleverly taking advantage of Airbus's ambition to defeat Boeing in the market for jumbo jets -- thus diverting it from trying to replicate what Boeing thought would be the far more successful 787.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterco...w-busted-a380/

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    World's biggest water-bomber?
    Hm. You mean, Wasserlöschflugzeug mit Düsenantrieb? I just tried to translate your word for people in Germany. So, if that's the word which we both are lookin for, I'd say,
    No.
    The A388 never in its history served as a fire engine, as far as I know. And, it was on German Television, inauguration flight 2005. Back then they held big ceremonies at
    SIAE Le Bourget. World News, The biggest passenger jet on Earth.

    But since I celebrate my avatar with more than 50 years in the air, B747 inauguration flight happened February 1969, the planned ceremonies in Toulouse for 2020 have been shrunk.

    Can we find a reason why this biggest passenger jet of all times will show a crash landing in 2021, after not more than sixteen years in production?!

    Yes. And that's not only my opinion, since the 747 is 50 years in the air, somebody has said, and necessarily was not Chief Executive Officer Enders of Airbus,
    'In the year 1999, we wondered if we are too early with the idea of an intercontinental passenger jet which needs the 80x80 meter box.'

    No. Back then in 1999, the 747 yet has been in the air for 30 years (!). The A380 idea came at least three decades too late.

    Plus my five words. 1 Nobody 2 spent 3 money 4 for 5 the 80 x 80 meter box. At least not BEFORE the A388 was ready to fly, in 2005.

    If you ask me, I would never try to invent a car for the US Americans, before I'm sure that it fits into their garages! Plus, a car which is bigger than each and every US American car.. Plus, my home airport was never supported by the LH-A388.

    So what do we talk about here. A super huge aircraft which came three decades too late to be supported by men like me. Or too early, before the following list of airports said yes to that fat a/c.
    80 x 80 meter? You can help me with airports who today, not quite 14 years after the A388 inauguration flight, are able to provide enough space for this fat baby:
    EDDL
    EDDF
    Heathrow
    CDG.

    Imho, that's it, in Europe. If you know more, this topic is open for you. Let me continue with intercontinental A388 traffic:
    Dubai
    Sydney
    Los Angeles, proved with LH-A388 traffic, March 2nd 2019.

    Again that's it?! For more, even me needs help. And you can be sure, if somebody needs help who since 30 years observes the international air traffic, that's no good for an a/c!

    Hong Kong? No. LH-B748i.
    Rio de Janeiro? Even better. LH-B744!
    Ezeiza? No. LH-B748i.
    San Francisco, which is my avatar? No. LH-A346.

    A successful story in my eyes is different. But why. Did somebody ask SFO if they are able to provide the 80x80 meter box, back then in 2005?

    Even here at my home airport, nobody asked us if we have enough space for this obese jet aircraft! The result is, today, 14 years later here we have A388 traffic, but never with my favorite airline.

    Hard words, but here at EDDL, nobody asked for the A380, not since I am an aviation enthusiast. And why. Well, I don't know who paid the extension for one or two EDDL parking positions, from previously 70x70 meter, which since 1970 always has been big enough for NW-B747, LT-TriStar or even for this cute little bird:

    LH-B748 at Lohausen, February 2018

    So, why should somebody on Earth try to find space for a wingspan of 80 meters, if 69 meter fit everywhere?!
    ?!
    Too big and three decades too late: Airbus A380.

    So, after 2021 there again the 70x70 meter box is enough to be the biggest bird in the skies?

    It definitely seems like that!
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Senior Member Peter Kesternich's Avatar
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    Not quite sure where you are heading here with the box size, LH-B744... There are plenty more airports in Germany, in Europe, and around the world that get A380 traffic than the ones you have mentioned...
    I think the problem with the A380 was the size and the inferior economics of 4 engines. Basically, this also killed the 747, although the 747 had a successful run at 50 years which the A380 didn't have. Even if Airbus hadn't built the A380, and assuming that every customer who bought the A380 would have bought 747s instead, that would have added "only" another 300-something planes to the 747 production list. I believe that even without the A380, the 747 would be where it is today, heading into the twilight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    So what do we talk about here. A super huge aircraft which came three decades too late to be supported by men like me. Or too early, before the following list of airports said yes to that fat a/c.
    80 x 80 meter? You can help me with airports who today, not quite 14 years after the A388 inauguration flight, are able to provide enough space for this fat baby:
    EDDL
    EDDF
    Heathrow
    CDG.

    Imho, that's it, in Europe.
    That’s NOT it. To my knowledge, in Europe A380s visit Frankfurt, Munich, Düsseldorf, Amsterdam, Paris CDG, Nice, Barcelona, Madrid, Vienna, Prague, Milan, Rome, Zurich, Moscow (I think SVO), London LHR and occasionally LGW, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Copenhagen. There may be others on occasional schedules, eg. Dublin, Stockholm. And that’s just Europe.

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    Member pawelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalcyonDays View Post
    That’s NOT it. To my knowledge, in Europe A380s visit Frankfurt, Munich, Düsseldorf, Amsterdam, Paris CDG, Nice, Barcelona, Madrid, Vienna, Prague, Milan, Rome, Zurich, Moscow (I think SVO), London LHR and occasionally LGW, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Copenhagen. There may be others on occasional schedules, eg. Dublin, Stockholm. And that’s just Europe.
    + Hamburg (EK61, daily)

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    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalcyonDays View Post
    That’s NOT it. .....London LHR and occasionally LGW,.......There may be others on occasional schedules, eg. Dublin, Stockholm. And that’s just Europe.
    Gatwick is a bit more than occasional.......3 daily, 7 days per week Dubai flights to/from London Gatwick
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    Gatwick is a bit more than occasional.......3 daily, 7 days per week Dubai flights to/from London Gatwick
    I think, that's it. Really not more than 2 A388 airports if the topic is 'How many different A388 airports do exist in 1 country.' And I think, that question has to be answered by BA-A388 and LH-A388 pilots.
    Do you know more than 1 airport in Great Britain for the BA-A388? Or, to be more simple, does a BA-A388 Flight Captain have to know more than Heathrow, concerning GB?

    In Germany, it is like that. As a LH-A388 F/O, for you the one and only airport is Rhein/Main. Alternate airports (dt.: Ausweichflughäfen) in Germany for the LH-A388? None, afaik.

    LH-B748 is a rare guest here at my home airport. But she is a beloved guest.

    I could ask the jp database (or the EDDL control tower), during the last 3 years,
    was there 1 LH-A388 landing on my home airport? My answer is,
    No. And probably this is the answer to 'Is there a necessity to produce more A380 after 2021'

    Since 2005, the fat baby has not been supported. At least neither by you nor by me. 1 A388 airport per country is not enough, in my eyes. If you ask me, now the A388 almost ends like the Concorde, without the explosive end. Not really enough airports were able to support these a/c types.

    Or what's the reason that together with the Dutch Diesel we celebrate 50 years in the air for the type 747.

    PS: I don't say that Intercontinental airlines who still operate the 744, after all those 30 years, know more. But it's obvious, none of them has ever owned a 737-Max8 with mcas failure.. It's obvious, I really love intercontinental airlines who are older than me.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    And, if he does not kick me out for 'too much entries in 1 topic'...

    Since 1978, there always have been locations which have been made for the type 747, and for nobody else:

    KL-B744 with new KL wave design at Chek Lap Kok, 2019.

    This is a 747 airport, and nothin else, also if you asked my favorite airline today.

    PS: Don't misunderstand me. I've never been a real enemy for the A380. But there must be reasons/airlines who never decided to buy 1 A380.
    A real all-time classic, Cathay Pacific. They still fly the 747, B748 Freighter version. And they decided for the A350 passage and against A380.
    An A380 freighter never was available.
    So, imho Cathay Pacific is not the only end but one end for the A380 story. You can also ask LH Cargo (MD11F) ..

    Men (and women?!), we shouldn't underestimate the power of semi-pro simulators by Captain Randazzo. He never published an A380. Instead (dt: anstelledessen), which a/c type still today (again) is on top of his www appearance? - Not the MD11 fsx anno 2013..
    -
    And next year. A Randazzo A350? One thing still makes the difference between a LH-A359 and a 747. Not the wingspan. But the MTOW. A359 is such a lightweight, LH operates it with not more than 590,000 lb. With my avatar, I'd accept that as MLW (630 k). 293 seats. Vs 350. So, who do you call if you need 350 seats.
    Nevertheless. I'd know at least three classic intercontinental airlines who'd buy a Randazzo A350: Cathay Pacific, KLM, and a rather unimportant German airline with a bird on the tailfin..
    I mean, I can understand how a man becomes physically addicted from the type 747.. Who if not me:
    -
    Here at my home airport most of the time we use the t/o to the West. So, let me make a scenario. LH-B748, first of all Mike, then we receive clearance, 23L. I really regret, I wasn't there during her last visit, February 2018? If you ask me, with TORA 2645, I'll always set parking brakes. Then let all 4 engines scream a little bit. Then release brakes. Then accelerate to Vr. Then the 747 sound. Unique on this planet. Then rotate. Probably only thing in bed could be better than that, only if it's really good.
    Last edited by LH-B744; 03-12-2019 at 06:21 AM. Reason: Don't ask me for the perfect recipe. A350?
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Member pawelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    I think, that's it. Really not more than 2 A388 airports if the topic is 'How many different A388 airports do exist in 1 country.' And I think, that question has to be answered by BA-A388 and LH-A388 pilots.
    Do you know more than 1 airport in Great Britain for the BA-A388? Or, to be more simple, does a BA-A388 Flight Captain have to know more than Heathrow, concerning GB?

    In Germany, it is like that. As a LH-A388 F/O, for you the one and only airport is Rhein/Main. Alternate airports (dt.: Ausweichflughäfen) in Germany for the LH-A388? None, afaik.
    1) Well, LHR is BA's main hub, so where you would expect A380 to be? It's the same stuff with Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Air France, Singapore Airlines etc. All of their A380s are flying from main hubs.
    2) As for Germany - this one is differrent, because LH has two main hubs - Munich also has A380 flights. Daily. Btw, I don't recall any German airport, apart from FRA, that has LH's B747 daily ops, so according to your logic it should be retired long time ago.

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