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Thread: BREAKING: Boeing 767 cargo jet operated by Atlas Air has crashed in Texas

  1. #81
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Like these ones?
    What ones? (Ok, I think this is an argument of agreement)

    Getting startled is not a reason to do a full-input-death-dive. Ground bad...Altitude good- that is awfully darn just almost completely universal.

    When in the hell do you EVER do (or practice) a full dive?

    Stall bad-a little shove-over is fine.

    Missed approach- aggressive pull up...that one is practiced...Finally rode one in IMC-and most likely inside the marker- it got my attention. Maybe you botch that one during an oh-crap moment...

    But again- TOTAL death dive while in IMC where "a steady hand on the controls" is what it's ALL about?

    Sorry- NOT an apples to apples deal.
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  2. #82
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Somatogravic illusion?
    No No No No No!

    C'mon...

    A brief shove over fine...

    SHOVING the column full forward???

    Didn't this guy get instrument training and recovery from unusual attitudes?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    When in the hell do you sit there- nose FULL down while the plane goes into 40-degrees nose down...

    Oh shit- wait, look at the AI here before we do anything else...
    (The oh shit and a little shove over are very much forgiven...NOT the death dive)

    Can someone with that kind of cognitive disorder really make it to the right seat of a 767? Did he know someone? The quintessential (and generally not_totally fair stereotype puppy mill graduate?
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    No No No No No!

    C'mon...

    A brief shove over fine...

    SHOVING the column full forward???
    Yes, you are right. And I've heard that negative Gs wee involved. That should be a strong wake-up call stronger than any somatogravic illusion that maybe you are pushing down too hard.

    But what then? Intentional act? That doesn't seem to match the "oh shit" comment by the FO once they broke out the clouds and the attempt to level off. UNLESS it as a masterpiece of cold blood intentional acting.

    One thing that I am having problems to buy with this initial rumor sort of confirmed (still as a rumor) by BB is that of the captain pulling up so hard that he broke the pins holding the control column. It is my understanding (but I am not sure or even confident of it) that each control column controls its side of the elevator and both control columns are connected via a torque tube that has a spring-loaded connection which, if enough opposite force is applied on the control column, will separate and each control column will control it's side of the elevator independently (a split elevator), as it happened in the Egypt Air 900 suicide crash (also a 767).

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  4. #84
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    And, by the way, the absolute amount of nose-down attitude will do nothing to counteract the somatogravic illusion. You would not react to that illusion by pushing down sustained negative Gs, but you might keep pushing down for a sustained period of time while the pitch goes down somehow slowly until it reaches insane nose-down attitudes with your body still feeling that you are in an unusual nose-up attitude.

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  5. #85
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Somatogravic illusion?
    Probably. The other somatogravic illusion dive incidents were due to a sudden pitch reduction when leveling off from a steep climb. That produced a sensation that the nose is travelling further upward. The instinctive move would be to push down harder.

    The cool-headed move would be to trust the "I" part of IMC.

    The human mind, unfortunately, tends to prioritize the vestibular system over the inertial reference system.

  6. #86
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    And, by the way, the absolute amount of nose-down attitude will do nothing to counteract the somatogravic illusion. You would not react to that illusion by pushing down sustained negative Gs, but you might keep pushing down for a sustained period of time while the pitch goes down somehow slowly until it reaches insane nose-down attitudes with your body still feeling that you are in an unusual nose-up attitude.
    Concuerdo

    STILL THE SUPER CRAZY UBER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUMENT FLIGHT ARE TO LOOK AT THE DIETY-CONDEMING ATTITUDE INDICATOR, TRUST IT, DOUBLE CHECK IT(IF YOU NEED TO) AND ADDRESS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Somatogravic illusion?
    In particular, the "head up" illusion caused by sudden acceleration.

  8. #88
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    In particular, the "head up" illusion caused by sudden acceleration.
    STILL THE SUPER CRAZY UBER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUMENT FLIGHT ARE TO LOOK AT THE DIETY-CONDEMING ATTITUDE INDICATOR, TRUST IT, DOUBLE CHECK IT(IF YOU NEED TO) AND ADDRESS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    By the way- this was not a high-workload situation. NOT apples to apples on the disorientation of that Eastern Country go-around-rather-relentless-pull-up-to-stall-followed-by-steep-nose-dive/737 a couple years back.
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  9. #89
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The other somatogravic illusion dive incidents were due to a sudden pitch reduction when leveling off from a steep climb. That produced a sensation that the nose is travelling further upward
    We discussed this in the past. I don't think that that somatogravic illusion exists. I think you are getting it wrong.

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  10. #90
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    We discussed this in the past. I don't think that that somatogravic illusion exists. I think you are getting it wrong.
    STILL THE SUPER CRAZY UBER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUMENT FLIGHT ARE TO LOOK AT THE DIETY-CONDEMING ATTITUDE INDICATOR, TRUST IT, DOUBLE CHECK IT(IF YOU NEED TO) AND ADDRESS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (Or do I need more exclamation points?)

    Again- I am a bit forgiving of go-around somtatographic deals- high workload and less-experienced pilots botching it...

    But this is sooooooooooooooooooooooo basic that an ATP-AT LEAST- should not botch it (level off's and when flying 20+ miles away from the airport and a mile away from the ground....)
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  11. #91
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    STILL THE SUPER CRAZY UBER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUMENT FLIGHT ARE TO LOOK AT THE DIETY-CONDEMING ATTITUDE INDICATOR, TRUST IT, DOUBLE CHECK IT(IF YOU NEED TO) AND ADDRESS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (Or do I need more exclamation points?)

    Again- I am a bit forgiving of go-around somtatographic deals- high workload and less-experienced pilots botching it...

    But this is sooooooooooooooooooooooo basic that an ATP-AT LEAST- should not botch it (level off's and when flying 20+ miles away from the airport and a mile away from the ground....)
    And since the captain apparently what was happening, how many times do you instruct the junior FO to stop pushing down and help pull up before punching him in the face? (since FO's don't have a cutout switch).

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  12. #92
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    One thing that I am having problems to buy with this initial rumor sort of confirmed (still as a rumor) by BB is that of the captain pulling up so hard that he broke the pins holding the control column. It is my understanding (but I am not sure or even confident of it) that each control column controls its side of the elevator and both control columns are connected via a torque tube that has a spring-loaded connection which, if enough opposite force is applied on the control column, will separate and each control column will control it's side of the elevator independently (a split elevator).
    Yes, that part is highly dubious. The 767 has a breakout override mechanism as you describe. I've seen various figures between 30lbs and 50lbs of force differential required (it is intended to overcome a jammed column, not a column war). The rumor might have misunderstood a report of broken shear rivets on the elevator bellcrank or a sheared spring pin on the PCA linkage in the empennage, which might result from a column war (who knows). The idea that Boeing would attach the column to the torque tube in a way that could be broken by human force seems a bit... crackerbox...

  13. #93
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    And since the captain apparently what was happening, how many times do you instruct the junior FO to stop pushing down and help pull up before punching him in the face? (since FO's don't have a cutout switch).
    Concur.

    However, on the discussion front- One of my most valuable learnings was messing around in MSFS in "mundane IMC (3000 ft ceiling)", drinking a beer...HAND FLYING an airliner as any good Bobby-wanna-be would do...

    I let my SA slip, and developed a good crisp sink...

    Looked away...looked back...Oh hey, just broke out of the clouds- dang the ground is coming up really f[SPLAT].

    The brief version: Concur, but it doesn't take too awful long to develop an unrecoverable dive from 6000 feet...Plenty of time for an early recovery...not much-if not zero- for a late recovery.

    Still, I cannot reconcile an extreme dive- Ground bad...altitude good...that's just almost ALWAYS the way it is...

    Nevertheless, this is all still rumor and yes, I remember the suicide deal where somehow or other the 767 went into "split elevator" mode...
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    And since the captain apparently what was happening, how many times do you instruct the junior FO to stop pushing down and help pull up before punching him in the face? (since FO's don't have a cutout switch).
    They tend to frown heavily in CRM training when you"punch" another crewmember. However, there is a time and a place.

  15. #95
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Nevertheless, this is all still rumor and yes, I remember the suicide deal where somehow or other the 767 went into "split elevator" mode...
    The left column controls the left elevator. The right controls the right elevator. They run separate cables through entirely different parts of the fuselage. The columns are linked via a torque tube under the cockpit, and the two sides of the torque tube are connected via a spring mechanism that is designed to breakout if a large differential force is applied. This is all done to prevent a single column/elevator control circuit jam from prohibiting pitch control. But if both columns are forcefully moved in opposite directions, you can get into a split elevator situation. AFAIK this basic set-up is common to all the non-fbw Boeings, including the older 737's via a retrofit.

    I don't see any scenario in which the right column could be broken by pilot force against the left. It makes no sense.

  16. #96
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    The NTSB has downloaded the CVR and issued preliminary information.
    https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-rele...r20190305.aspx

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highkeas View Post
    The NTSB has downloaded the CVR and issued preliminary information.
    https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-rele...r20190305.aspx
    That's more than 2 months old.

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  18. #98
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    That's more than 2 months old.
    THAT it's 2 months old is a bit newsworthy.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    THAT it's 2 months old is a bit newsworthy.
    It is and it was. We already discussed it here.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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