Breaking news: Ethiopian Airlines flight has crashed on way to Nairobi

[BoeingBobby]

Evan, "The flaps lever is the on/off switch for MCAS"

Not what I am told. MCAS Not active with auto pilot engaged as well. Stick shaker going and they retract flaps? WTF

[Gabriel]

Actually, the best thing to do here is put some flap back out and make a return. The moment flaps were re-extended on the Lion air flight, the problem stopped (the stickshaker remained). This way, you still have the electric pitch trim and no more upsets from the MCAS, as it is inhibited by flap deployment. The flaps lever is the on/off switch for MCAS.

So why doesn't the AD list this as the emergency procedure?

Perhaps because it is not available at any speed. Or worse, it IS available with disastrous consequences at some speeds.

[Gabriel]

Yes, and was the pepper mill active also?

Not sure if the "pepper mill" was pure sarcasm or a fun name for the trim wheel. If the latest, then yes, it was very active every time that the pilots operated the trim with the thumb switch, the AP operated the trim con cancel the stick forces, or the MCAS operated the trim to do what the MCAS does. No trim wheel movement = no trim movement, to the point that you can stop any trim runaway by grabbing the trim wheel. The trim motor sill keep spinning but there is a clutch in the wheel that can be easily overridden by grabbing and stopping the wheel and that will stop the stabilizer motion even if the motor keeps spinning.

[Gabriel]

Evan, "The flaps lever is the on/off switch for MCAS"

Not what I am told. MCAS Not active with auto pilot engaged as well. Stick shaker going and they retract flaps? WTF

MCAS is active only in manual flights with flaps retracted. AP engaged or flaps extended, any or booth of these conditions will inhibit the MCAS (not sure about only slats extended). And yes, the Lion Air pilots retracted the flaps with the stickshaker shaking on one side. It was a false stickshaker we now know, since one of the AoA sensors was sending erroneous (too high) AoA information.

[Evan]

Evan, "The flaps lever is the on/off switch for MCAS"

Not what I am told. MCAS Not active with auto pilot engaged as well. Stick shaker going and they retract flaps? WTF

Well, obviously this assumes the pilot has already discovered the stickshaker is erroneous (positive climb / onside only).

MCAS is only active in clean configuration. The Lion Air DFDR shows that the system malfunction stopped when the flaps were briefly re-extended.

Perhaps because it is not available at any speed. Or worse, it IS available with disastrous consequences at some speeds.

But we are not talking about 'at any speed'. The event occurs at flap retraction speed. Apparently, all you need is flaps 1 to stop it.

[Evan]

Not sure if the "pepper mill" was pure sarcasm or a fun name for the trim wheel.

You keep posting 'saltshaker' instead of 'stickshaker'. Is that a fun name for a not-so-fun event?

[Gabriel]

You keep posting 'saltshaker' instead of 'stickshaker'. Is that a fun name for a not-so-fun event?

No, it is my lack of monitoring of the automation (auto-correct when I post from my cellphone).

[shinoby]

These two switches have been in every Boeing commercial jet aircraft since the 707. Right in front of the First Officers left knee. [ATTACH=CONFIG]22701[/ATTACH]

(btw im a programmer not a pilot or ingenieur)
i really would like to discuss this malfunction here



rules that MCAS get ACTIVATED:
if --- angle of attack is high -- OR -- autopilot is off -- OR -- flaps are up -- OR -- steeply turning

rules that MCAS get DEACTIVATED
if --- Pilots override with manual trim -- OR -- Angle of Attack is lowered

what happens IF MCAS gets ACTIVATED:
result -> move the tail up to 2.5 degree

where does MCAS get its data
->always only from 1 of 2 sensors (WTF?!)

so thats the Boeing program code:
(im doin it for purpose in that language)
in this case if the sensor have bad data because of malfunction of the sensor (freezed , dirty or whatever)

hidden background cycle while flying: (lets name this cycle MTTP (move the tail procedure)

first. we get data task: (WGDT)
read ONLY sensor 1 .. AOA too high?
is autopilot off ?
are flaps up ?
are we steeply turning ?

second. any of the questions answered yes?
then
----->lets move the tail up to 2.5 degree

now thats running hiddenly in the background

the problem here that i see is that the way its coded
the pilots CANT deactivate it

WGDT is always answered YES if the sensor provides bad data
so while flying, the whole time in the air
MCAS would kick in and move the tail up to 2.5 degree

these little differences in both flights that crashed could be results due WGD answered in different ways to yes
it could be that auto pilot was still on, flaps were still down, and no turning and
in that moment that autopilot turned off, flaps got up or they turned in some direction
MCAS kicked in and the death cycle was no outcome
(maybe if they turned autopilot on, flaps down, and just were flying straight the death cycle would stop, but hey where are they flying then?)

it would be a never ending fight of MCAS kicks in, and pilots manually correct lets say to 1 degree, then MCAS kicks in move the tail to 2.5 degree, then pilots again correct it to 1 degree.... then MCAS kicks in move the tail to 2.5 degree and so on.......

even if they deactivate the whole board computer so that the background cycle does not running anymore (maybe the only way it does deactivate MCAS?)
the question would be...are the pilots aware to fly a aircraft that is designed to fly only with MCAS because its hard to maneuver/ land and so on.. or would this aircraft be unflyable without MCAS??!

thats a really bad way of coding
even if i had only 1 day time to code because i have to provide it
every coder would see this heavy bug i just cant understand it

everyone can correct me if i understand the fly behavior wrong

[Gabriel]

For a programmer, you are doing a poor job distinguishing between OR and AND. The logic would be:

SUB: MCAS
IF AP=off AND flaps=retracted, THEN MCAS=ARMED, ELSE MCAS=DISARMED
IF (certain combination of AoA from 1 sensor + speed + load factor + thrust setting) AND MCAS=ARMED, THEN

RECORD ACTUAL_TRIM AS TRIM0
TRIM_TARGET=TRIM0-2.5
WHILE ACTUAL_TRIM>TRIM_TARGET

Command trim down
IF thumb sitch active, THEN Stop trim down command AND exit WHILE loop AND Keep MCAS=DISARMED for 5 seconds

DO

RUN MCAS

(note: if the pilots grab the trim wheel, the MCAS will still be armed and able to command trim down but the pilot will forcefully override it by not allowing the wheel to turn; if the trim cutout switch is in the cutout position, the MCAS will still command trim don but the trim will not move since the motor is not energized)

[Black Ram]

That picture is a 737 MAX 8 pedestal. Turn the switches off, no more electric trim, no more MCAS. Evan, you are going to love this! Training, training and more training.

I thought the MAX is not legally allowed to fly without MCAS.

I also thought trim runaway is defined as continuous.

I thought flying with unreliable airspeed is a challenge by itself, and that maybe erroneous stall warnings and stickshaker can really confuse the crew.

But what do I know.

[Black Ram]

Indeed. That's how it went down with now-defunct VW.

Oh, wait, I meant record 2018 sales VW.

Sales may have been record breaking but so were the fines and expenses of some USD 30 billion. There were organizational changes and their CEO was replaced twice. At least one engineering director spent some time in jail in Germany and one executive was given the max 7 years in the US. More executives are under investigation.
When you add all that (expenses plus turmoil) and then you consider the 40-50 billion they are investing in electrification (an indirect result of dieselgate), those record sales are just OK because their margins are lagging. They are even considering selling off some of their brands (my guess Bentley could be one of them).
So no, it's not the way it was before.

[shinoby]

For a programmer, you are doing a poor job distinguishing between OR and AND. The logic would be:

SUB: MCAS
IF AP=off AND flaps=retracted, THEN MCAS=ARMED, ELSE MCAS=DISARMED
IF (certain combination of AoA from 1 sensor + speed + load factor + thrust setting) AND MCAS=ARMED, THEN

RECORD ACTUAL_TRIM AS TRIM0
TRIM_TARGET=TRIM0-2.5
WHILE ACTUAL_TRIM>TRIM_TARGET

Command trim down
IF thumb sitch active, THEN Stop trim down command AND exit WHILE loop AND Keep MCAS=DISARMED for 5 seconds

DO

RUN MCAS

(note: if the pilots grab the trim wheel, the MCAS will still be armed and able to command trim down but the pilot will forcefully override it by not allowing the wheel to turn; if the trim cutout switch is in the cutout position, the MCAS will still command trim don but the trim will not move since the motor is not energized)

omg i Never tried to write here code thats usable to copy paste
i did wrote that im using that Language for porpuse!
and secondly no i do Not do a poor job i know the difference between AND and OR
thats the reason i choosed AND!!!!
your Code is still to good, i think the First line does not exist, and thats the reason mcas kicks in if Sensor Data is wrong!!!

So you cannot deacrivste it
the if clause always gets triggered When sensor data is malwaredw(Sensor delivering wrong Data is not happening First Time)

We do Not know the Code
But there are Many ways it can be coded
My Code was poor on porpose
You Could Code it in different ways with AND and OR or Even Both used
And it Would all be the same good or same shit
So just telling im using poor Code or cannot differenciate between AND and OR
lol

If you have informations about the Code or want to discuss Something out im here beachte Its important to figure out if it was poorly coded or is there another reason for this Crash accodent

[HansPeter]

Please. This behaviour is hardly the dominion of the Americans alone. The EU does the exact same for Airbus and the politicians are equally adept at corruption and allowing their companies to skirt rules in favour of profit.

Do you know the expression "Thief thinks every man steals"?

To a certain extent your are properly right, but that doesn't make it right. We do, however, have data on corruption and most Western-/Northern-European country do have much lower levels of corruption then the U.S. Most countries in the top 20 with the lowest corruption are European. America clocks in at no. 22 just above United Arab Emirates and Uruguay.

But we are not necessarily talking about corruption in this case. It's properly equally as much about incompetence, cutting corners and the thinking "well Airbus most be doing the same so its okay".

Another thing is all this talk about diesels killing people. It's like "well I killed two people but what about this other guy he killed three people." It's called whataboutism and is an old communist trick to deflect criticism and focus away from ones own crimes and shortcomings.

And just to be clear. I wouldn't like to live in a world where Airbus was the only option. We need both Boeing and Airbus. We need good competition and products of the highest quality.

We should demand constant improvements in safety/survivability and not just better fuel economy.

We should expect to be safer in the latest 737 then the 20 year old 777. Imagine if a car maker launched a new vehicle with better fuel economy but with safety on par with or lower then a model introduced in 1994.

[Evan]

Sales may have been record breaking but so were the fines and expenses of some USD 30 billion. There were organizational changes and their CEO was replaced twice. At least one engineering director spent some time in jail in Germany and one executive was given the max 7 years in the US. More executives are under investigation.

Bottom line: VW profited from their crime. Industry has taken notice of that. If Dieselgate had wiped them out, Industry would perhaps be a bit more reluctant to do such things.
But entire economies depend upon sole private enterprises like this. Regulators and justices cannot injure them beyond a certain point, lest they also injure society. Global capitalism has won over justice.
For this reason, we have to WATCH them and PREVENT them from neglecting safety or the environment. We can no longer impose after-the-fact punishments strong enough to function as a deterrent.
This is called regulation. According to Fox News and the Republican party and their head Cheeto, it is a bad thing for society.
So the real problem at the heart of all of this is widespread cognitive dissonance.

[Evan]

No, it is my lack of monitoring of the automation (auto-correct when I post from my cellphone).

Isn't there a guarded give-me-the-phone switch?