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Thread: Breaking news: Ethiopian Airlines flight has crashed on way to Nairobi

  1. #181
    Senior Member B757300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainsys View Post
    Amongst air safety regulators? I would have thought the concern should have been why the FAA were so late to the party. Still better late than never and, thankfully, there has been no loss in the delay.

    I presume the debate now moves to whether the planned April update will be sufficient to fix the issue or whether we will need a greater understanding of the issue and why two crews failed to overcome it - the second crew presumably well aware of the disconnect option. A combination of a design issue complicated by human factors?
    The hysteria comment is about the insanity on forums/social media (A.net went completely off the rails with calls for shutting down Boeing, banning EVERY model of the 737 forever, arresting Boeing employees for murder charges, etc.), and various "experts" that the media brings out who know little if anything.

    13 year old flight sim kids with keyboards are not aviation experts. Another forum I post on I had to quit discussing this crash because too many people would flag my posts because in their mind, only a pilot or engineer has the right to give an opinion (if it contradicts theirs) or present actual facts (which also contradict their opinions). Heck, I told someone not to worry because his upcoming flight was not on a 737MAX, but the flag happy fools got it deleted. He is flying on a 737-800. Strangely enough, we have 2 737MAX pilots on the forum, and they were dismissed just as quickly.

    Anyway, on the topic of the ET crash and the 737MAX, I have no doubt the issues will be resolved. It might end up being a lot more complex and take longer than anyone realizes, but it will be fixed. The only thing that cannot be fixed directly by Boeing is the human factor. That will require pilot training by the airlines.

  2. #182
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    ...pilots who don’t f**k about with a keyboard when something unusual happens but who just instinctively know what to set the controls to to maintain a reasonable semblance of level flight and thus gain them some more time to work out what is happening.
    What specific model and checklist is that from?

    (For the record, I do concur)
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  3. #183
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Yes, you do need more. Being rated for the 737-NG doesn't automatically authorize you to fly the MAX.
    Now, if you are a 737-NG pilot, the transition to the MAX will be much shorter and abbreviated.


    No, it is not. Any 737-NG pilot will feel at home in the cockpit of a 737 MAX.
    There are improvements made to the MAX but the cockpits, displays, indicators, switches, buttons, levers, layout, etc, are definitively quite similar.
    Hey. That's what friends are for: incredibly fast answers. Thanks alot mate. But there are cases where things are easier. I've just asked wikipedia for the word
    'type rating'.
    There somebody says:
    Many commercial aircraft share type ratings, allowing qualified pilots to operate both of them with minimal transition training. Examples include the Boeing 757 and Boeing 767, Boeing 777 and Boeing 787, Airbus A330 and Airbus A340, and all of the members of the A320 family (the A318, A319, A320, and A321).
    So, between 757 and 767 it is no problem. But between type 738 and 737 Max 8 there is a problem. That's something which I feared.

    Again two questions.
    Imho, the 737 family since inauguration (February 1968_) had more changes than 747, 757, 767.

    1. Is the 737 the a/c family with the most changes ever, if we talk about Boeing?

    PS: Now the 737 Max 8 is also grounded in North America, USA and Canada incl., and the Boeing CEO D. Muilenburg has recommended to not t/o or start the engines with a 737 Max 8,
    worldwide.
    So, now the investigators have time.

    2. Again somebody told me, that either the Ethiopian FDR or CVR has yet been found, after only three days, which is a luck. I'd guess at least they have the CVR, I heard something through the grapevine, concerning that 737 Max 8 cockpit which does no longer exist since last sunday.. From the CVR.
    'x y control, we have problems with the elevator..'

    So have they already found both recorders, also the FDR?
    Last edited by LH-B744; 03-13-2019 at 11:10 PM. Reason: A good man, Muilenburg. And I like to help him.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  4. #184
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    For my question # 2, I've found the answer by myself:

    Ethiopian CVR AND FDR has been found.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  5. #185
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    For my question #1... That takes a little bit longer, but I'm not an aviation enthuasiast since yesterday, so let me see.
    Changes in the 737 family, let's say compared to my avatar, both, 737 and 747 in the air since more than 50 years.

    So, I like to help that the 737 bounces back (dt: der 737 wieder auf die Beine helfen).

    737 changes: No1 737-100, No2 737-200, No3 LH-B733 , No4 737-400, No5 LH-B735, so far I needed no help.
    But it's no good for an a/c type if somebody needs help who since more than 30 years is present on international airports.

    No6 737-600, No7 737-700 (abbreviation: 737?!), no8 737-800, No9 737-900, no10 737 max7, No11 737 max8, no12 737 max9, no13 737 max10.
    --

    And now the 747 changes: No1 747-100, No2 747-200, No3 747-300, No4 LH-B744 and No5 LH-B748. Lets count the 747-SP as No6.

    So, the 737 received 2 to 3 times as many changes as the type 747, and both a/c families are in the air since more than 50 years.
    --

    I don't know if it is healthy to change an enormously successful a/c family like the B737 family so often.
    Also with the knowledge that the 738 and the 737 Max 8 have exactly the same length, down to 1 centimeter,
    39,47 m.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    For my question #1... That takes a little bit longer, but I'm not an aviation enthuasiast since yesterday, so let me see.
    Changes in the 737 family, let's say compared to my avatar, both, 737 and 747 in the air since more than 50 years.

    So, I like to help that the 737 bounces back (dt: der 737 wieder auf die Beine helfen).

    737 changes: No1 737-100, No2 737-200, No3 LH-B733 , No4 737-400, No5 LH-B735, so far I needed no help.
    But it's no good for an a/c type if somebody needs help who since more than 30 years is present on international airports.

    No6 737-600, No7 737-700 (abbreviation: 737?!), no8 737-800, No9 737-900, no10 737 max7, No11 737 max8, no12 737 max9, no13 737 max10.
    --

    And now the 747 changes: No1 747-100, No2 747-200, No3 747-300, No4 LH-B744 and No5 LH-B748. Lets count the 747-SP as No6.

    So, the 737 received 2 to 3 times as many changes as the type 747, and both a/c families are in the air since more than 50 years.
    --

    I don't know if it is healthy to change an enormously successful a/c family like the B737 family so often.
    Also with the knowledge that the 738 and the 737 Max 8 have exactly the same length, down to 1 centimeter,
    39,47 m.

    Because the market for the 737 is much stronger and active with head by head competition by Airbus (A318, 319, 320, 321 and its upgrades)

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    It just lists both accidents and says "On March 13 the investigation of ET302 developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities between ET302 and JT610 that warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents [sic] that needs to be better understood and addressed". I'd love some clarification on the bold part.
    Not exactly clarification, but perhaps some additional perspective:

    "It became clear to all parties that the track of the Ethiopian Airlines [flight] was very close and behaved very similarly to the Lion Air flight ... the evidence we found on the ground made it even more likely the flight path was very close to Lion Air's". - Dan Elwell

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

  8. #188
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapitan View Post
    Because the market for the 737 is much stronger and active with head by head competition by Airbus (A318, 319, 320, 321 and its upgrades)
    Yes. I accept that. And I wonder when my knowledge about the 737 stood still in aviation history.. LH-B733 inauguration, 1985. LH-B735 inauguration 1990, almost the tiniest Boeing Lufthansa ever owned, directly after this Baby Boeing..

    Lufthansa 737-200 at the ole Munich airport (Riem), summer 1982

    And exactly that a/c also crashed, long after LH had sold the complete LH 737-200 fleet back then in 1997. 50 years in the air with 737 and 747, that's a long time.

    In 2016, the Lufthansa Boeing 737 history ended after almost 50 years (1967-2016), but according to the LH CEO in that year - due to type rating issues.

    LH ordered 'our' first A320 anno 1985, and until 2016 'we' had both families, B737 and A318/A319/A320/A321. Thus, three type ratings were needed (733, 735 and A320).
    In 2016, somebody said, that's not healthy. And you guess what, he chose the type rating which he owns in his pocket.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I think that thy now they know more than they are making public.
    You think? I expect, with the wildfire of the internet age and the golden age of lawyering, that there is a serious gag policy on the facts rights now. But I also expect exculpatory facts to be released as soon as possible. So, for instance, something that exonerates the pilots and the airline by blaming the airplane, or vice versa, might be forthcoming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The trim wheel makes a bloody racket, etc.
    Yes, of course I've considered that. But I've also considered all the lessons of history that suggest that tunnelling can pretty much blank out anything.
    Again, I think you (and all the other unwaveringly reliable pilots on this forum) need to stop neglecting the very strange, hard to grasp phenomena of human factors.
    If you are paying attention, one of the main lessons of the encyclopedia of accident reports is that we must do everything practical to avoid sudden, startling upsets and complex, potentially confusing upset scenarios. Because analysis of pilot responses in accident situations tells us that we cannot simply depend on correct pilot responses under these conditions. Notice that I said practical but also everything. That includes grounding vital airplanes.
    That is why the 737MAX must be temporarily grounded. It has systemic problems that can lead to sudden, startling upsets and complex, potentially confusing upset scenarios. And we know what that can lead to.
    Hubris tells us that we would never make such unthinkable mistakes. Hubris comes from experience. Humility comes from knowledge.

    I truly hope Boeing can quickly remediate the vulnerability they created and get the 737MAX back in service with minimal impact to the company and avoid layoffs. I don't want to see their talented people pay the price for reckless management decisions.

    I think perhaps some heads need to roll on the senior management level however.

    It seems that ferry flights will be allowed in the interim.

  10. #190
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainsys
    I would have thought the concern should have been why the FAA were so late to the party. Still better late than never...
    As I understand it, the grounding came via an executive order, and then the FAA fell in line with that decision.
    The FAA really showed their hand and spent their cred on this one. After we fix the 737MAX, I suspect we're going to have to tear down the FAA and put it through a sort of regulatory D-check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B757300 View Post
    Anyway, on the topic of the ET crash and the 737MAX, I have no doubt the issues will be resolved. It might end up being a lot more complex and take longer than anyone realizes, but it will be fixed. The only thing that cannot be fixed directly by Boeing is the human factor. That will require pilot training by the airlines.
    Oh yeah, and what about the loss of human life? And why are we here? Why was the airplane allowed to fly with this problem? It goes further than just Boeing. It has to do with the FAA, regulations, regulator capture.

    And yes, if it all turns out to be true, maybe someone should go to jail. Why not? Isn't gross negligence a crime? What's to guarantee this won't continue to occur in the future if there is no accountability?

    Having said that, I'm sorry you have been mistreated on that other forum. I suppose emotions take over at some point. But the way regulators started grounding/banning this plane so systematically was not an emotional response and is very worrisome. It's even more worrisome how the FAA ends up being clearly behind the curve. There are trust issues now that will not just blow over. This shouldn't just blow over.

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    Looks nice in that retro LH livery. By comparison, the current LH livery looks like.....um...not so good.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Ram View Post
    This shouldn't just blow over.
    Amen to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    Hey. That's what friends are for: incredibly fast answers. Thanks alot mate. But there are cases where things are easier. I've just asked wikipedia for the word
    'type rating'.
    There somebody says:
    Many commercial aircraft share type ratings, allowing qualified pilots to operate both of them with minimal transition training. Examples include the Boeing 757 and Boeing 767, Boeing 777 and Boeing 787, Airbus A330 and Airbus A340, and all of the members of the A320 family (the A318, A319, A320, and A321).
    So, between 757 and 767 it is no problem. But between type 738 and 737 Max 8 there is a problem. That's something which I feared.
    For the record, I did not say that the NG and the MAX do not share the same pilot type rating. I did say that being rated in one doesn't automatically authorize you to fly the other, the same that the 757 and 767 where you need "minimal transition training" as in your quote, or "if you are a 737-NG pilot, the transition to the MAX will be much shorter and abbreviated" as in my quote.

    1. Is the 737 the a/c family with the most changes ever, if we talk about Boeing?
    I don't know. I don't know even how to count the changes. But it sounds to me like a reasonable speculation. It is the oldest Boeing airplane in production and you had 4 generations. The legacy, the classic, the NG and the MAX.

    2. Again somebody told me, that either the Ethiopian FDR or CVR has yet been found, after only three days, which is a luck. I'd guess at least they have the CVR, I heard something through the grapevine, concerning that 737 Max 8 cockpit which does no longer exist since last sunday.. From the CVR.
    'x y control, we have problems with the elevator..'

    So have they already found both recorders, also the FDR?
    Yes, they have both recorders. The crash happened on 3/10 and on 3/11 it was announced that both recorders had been recovered.
    However, they have not been read out yet. Today, Ethiopia's authorities requested assistance to the French BEA to read out the black boxes and the BEA accepted.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Sarcasm correct, but that you don't get it- serious eye-roll:

    1) You are usually the one that is thorough.

    2) What good is a noisy trim wheel if you aren't familiar with it and the process of trimming.

    So- you demonstrate a nice noisy wheel...and maybe pilots also use it a lot and are familiar with it?
    Pilots(especially one named Otto) use the trim a lot in every single flight and pilots (especially those named not_Otto) are very familiar with how the wheel looks, spins and sounds.

    (And yes, I understood that you know that and those where rhetorical / sarcastic questions)

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    There’s one thing that I’m starting to miss when being flown around the world. I’m missing being flown by highly experienced, highly trained ex military pilots, preferably who at some time in their career had someone shooting at them. The kind of pilots who don’t f**k about with a keyboard when something unusual happens but who just instinctively know what to set the controls to to maintain a reasonable semblance of level flight and thus gain them some more time to work out what is happening.
    I have to tell you, though, that those pilots tended to crash a lot (relatively) due to over-confidence, complacency, weak adherence to procedures and rules, and poor CRM.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Ok...two very new airplanes descended into the ground, probably against the pilot's wishes...and there's a new, not-so-redundant, slightly relentless push over system...maybe we should park the airplanes and check on things.

    I'm very much with you on the lack of hard proof...but I dunno- we've grounded "fleets" before for the sake of caution...
    I do not remember having a fleet grounded by something like this (one accident for a true vulnerability that can be easily mitigated with the application of simple and long-established procedures, plus a second accident that we don't know much about including whether it was related with the previous one or not). If this second accident was due to the MCAS too, maybe. But I am still resisting that idea. I so much want that to be NOT the case.

    But, if this second accident was related to a MCAS malfunction that could and should have been controlled with the trim runaway procedure, we better start figuring a way to identify and ban airlines and pilots rather than planes. No, I mean an EFFECTIVE way.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
    I don't know if it is healthy to change an enormously successful a/c family like the B737 family so often.
    Also with the knowledge that the 738 and the 737 Max 8 have exactly the same length, down to 1 centimeter,
    39,47 m.
    As an engineer who worked in the aerospace industry for 45 years I can tell you that aircraft configurations change constantly due to airline demands (add more seats, add more range), parts availability (suppliers going out of business, ownership changes, parts obsolescence), material issues (a biggy happened in the 70s when 7075-T6 Al Alloy was found to be cracking), and then new government mandated rules come into effect (lead free solder). When replacing aircraft parts one had to know the serial number of an aircraft, its parts, and its build history.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highkeas View Post
    As an engineer who worked in the aerospace industry for 45 years I can tell you that aircraft configurations change constantly due to airline demands (add more seats, add more range), parts availability (suppliers going out of business, ownership changes, parts obsolescence), material issues (a biggy happened in the 70s when 7075-T6 Al Alloy was found to be cracking), and then new government mandated rules come into effect (lead free solder). When replacing aircraft parts one had to know the serial number of an aircraft, its parts, and its build history.
    Wow. I knew that 'Our' jetphotos platform is good for men between, you better don't ask me, but some Junior members are not older than 14, aren't they... and 41. But you say you worked for aviation for 45 years, so..
    Do you know who Lufthansa General Mayrhuber was? He joined Lufthansa in the year 1970 as an engineer for jet engines (dt:Triebwerkentwicklung und -instandsetzung). And he left his company after almost 48 years, on September 24th 2017, as Lufthansa General (dt.: Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender der LH Group AG, und Chef von Spohr).

    I knew that here at jetphotos we have good benchmarks. But until now I didn't know that one of General Mayrhubers counterparts on the other side of the Atlantic still is active here. General W.M. will always be a prototype for me, 48 years for LH. That's one of the things which are impossible for me. Unfortunately W.M. died, not 18 months after he left his company (1947-2018_).

    Thus, I have a rough guess concerning your dob. Always a good thing to have experienced men on board!

    PS: LH Winter Schedule January 2010 is just on my table. That must've been one of the last months when type LH-B744 was flown to Indonesia,
    WIII Soekarno Hatta.
    LH #778, not nonstop, via WSSS Changi, dep EDDF, but 1 stop is not so bad, for 6942 nautical miles (dt: Seemeilen).
    50 years in the air with 737 and 747.

    In remembrance of the 181 passengers, and 8 crew, who died in October 2018.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Before I complete this 10 hour nonstop operation.. Never in my life I've read so much about the B737, never with this nickname.. and never before I joined this brilliant platform.
    This topic is one of the best reasons to read all about the 737 what we can.

    There is at least 1 advantage for the 737 Max 8, compared to the 738.

    The 737 max 8 cracks the 6000 km benchmark nonstop, which are exactly 3240 nautical miles.
    The 738 doesn't do that.

    6000 km.. During the last Millenium, 737 pilots were proud with 4400 km (2400 nmi, as in the 735).
    Times change..
    Back then in 1999, you called 1 type when you needed more, type 747.

    Or a Condor.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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