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  • Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
    “It’s simply implausible that this MCAS deficiency by itself can down a modern jetliner with a trained crew”.
    It is disturbing to see that kind of naiveté and denial coming from a former FAA director.

    Comment


    • As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

      That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

      The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-later-crashed

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
        It is disturbing to see that kind of naiveté and denial coming from a former FAA director.
        Until you clarify if you have ANY ratings to fly an aircraft, I personally will not respond to any of your posts.

        Comment


        • I don't know how much more we (or at least I) want to beat this horse... but...

          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Yes, as the first thoughtful action after your intial reflex action to pull back on the column
          Again, I don't agree with that. You will not be reacting to a sudden pitch-down excursion but to a progressive pitching down motion that, if you are in manual flight, will take you increase your pull-back force in the column to keep your target attitude, and the natural reaction to that is to make nose-up trim inputs, which incidentally will stop the MCAS motion (at least momentarily)

          How many seconds does it take for your awareness to kick in and your pitch trim input to begin?
          You don't need any special awareness to kick in to use trim to cancel stick forces in manual flight.

          How certain are you about that? I've read that a trim change of 2.5 deg over 10 seconds at the speeds we are talking about can produce a rather abrupt and rapid nose-down effect.
          How do you compatibilize "over 10 seconds" with "abrupt and rapid" in the same sentence?. Sure, if I put the plane in "pause", trim down 2.5 deg, and then hit "play" again, the nose-down effect will be rapid and abrupt. However in real life it will take place over 10 seconds while the plane keeps flying and reacting to the progressive MCAS trim-down input and the progressive pilot's pull-up response until he hits the trim. As I understand (not certain), the trim motor has 2 speeds, and what speed is used depends on whether the flaps are extended (slow) or retracted (even slower), and not on where the input to move the trim comes from, pilot, AP or MCAS. The speed at which the MCAS moves the trim is the same than the pilot moves the trim. If it produced any sudden and rapid pitch excursion, it would be unusable as a trim for the pilot, since it is supposed to be a "fine tuning", very fine, to cancel very tiny stick forces to the point where you can release the yoke and the plane keeps flying without pitching. Look at these videos:

          This Friday we have taken our Boeing 737 CL full flight simulator to some undiscovered malfunction flight. Runaway stabilizer malfunction has given some seri...

          Like 13 seconds of trim runaway.
          The pitch goes down slowly but the pilot is able to control it by pulling back.
          Pulling back does not stops the runaway (it is an NG but as I said and as I have it, pulling back will not stop all kind of trim runaways).

          The stabilizer jack screw was located in the wreckage in the full 'nose down' position. What we know so far, and why this led to the grounding of the fleet.L...

          The violent inputs by the trim.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            I don't know how much more we (or at least I) want to beat this horse... but...
            It's sufficiently beaten. I maintain that the NG sim and the ipad/desktop routine are indequate due to the differences I've sufficiently beaten to death.

            Originally posted by avherald.com
            The source added the B737 NG simulator was not able to reproduce different trim handling by both aircraft: on the NG aircraft automatic trim (e.g. by the SRS) could be counteracted by an (intuitive) elevator opposite control input (e.g. on a nose down trim a nose up elevator input would stop and disable the autotrim system) unless a double failure was inserted by the sim instructor whereas on the MAX the intuitive counter acting elevator input no longer stops the automatic trim in order to permit MCAS to work.
            (the source wasn't me ; )

            It does take some breakout force or column travel to do this. 5% I think. If I'm reading the DFDR correctly, the Lion Air pilot applied about 30lbs of pull force to the column at the moment of upset.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
              It does take some breakout force or column travel to do this. 5% I think.
              5.5 degrees from neutral, according to your previous attachments.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                Until you clarify if you have ANY ratings to fly an aircraft, I personally will not respond to any of your posts.
                Sad. Some of us here were really looking forward to your responses. It's really nice that you are not involved in certifying any airplanes. Or in the Congressional Boeing probe. Also that you are not flying any passengers. This is a discussion forum, and for years you have been ruining the discussion and the friendly tone in the forum. I say take your ratings and your certificates and shove them - preferably in a cheap composite or cheap legacy metal frame. And hang them somewhere very high, where the whole world would see them. Seriously man, if you are so important, what are you even doing here? Shouldn't you be moving boxes around?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Black Ram View Post
                  Sad. Some of us here were really looking forward to your responses. It's really nice that you are not involved in certifying any airplanes. Or in the Congressional Boeing probe. Also that you are not flying any passengers. This is a discussion forum, and for years you have been ruining the discussion and the friendly tone in the forum. I say take your ratings and your certificates and shove them - preferably in a cheap composite or cheap legacy metal frame. And hang them somewhere very high, where the whole world would see them. Seriously man, if you are so important, what are you even doing here? Shouldn't you be moving boxes around?
                  Noted and gone. Enjoy yourselves

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                    28 September 2018 - Air Niugini Flight 73 at Chuuk International Airport

                    1 September 2018 - UTAir Flight 579 at Sochi International Airport

                    (Source: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-900)_aircraft )

                    UTAir was a runway overrun, not a total loss of control that killed everyone on board. Also, Russia is not a third world country (even though they have the highest accident rate in the world, again).

                    There were less that 360 737 MAX-es flying, and almost 7000 NGs. One would think you should have done better?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      Noted and gone. Enjoy yourselves
                      Wait! Before you go, will you please comment on Sully's criticism of the FAA and the MAX certification process?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        Perhaps we should improve pilot screening. Things like IQ, performing under pressure, and why not enough interest in your profession, the airplane you fly, your life, and the life of you passengers, that you go keep yourself very well informed of the safety vulnerabilities of your plane with or without the airline's intervention. And then a similar screening for the airlines.
                        Are you serious?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by thrpst View Post
                          Are you serious?
                          Almost always. Why?

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                            Until you clarify if you have ANY ratings to fly an aircraft, I personally will not respond to any of your posts.
                            Well, if you're still with us, I'm ignoring the question because this forum isn't about me any more then it is about you. If you are no longer with us, then I'm truly sorry to see you go. Just consider this, Gabriel is rated on the Tomahawk and I wish every line pilot had his qualifications. No blue font.

                            Comment


                            • This guy has become one of my favorite Aviation Youtubers. He explains his experience as a pilot the first 5 minutes or so then goes on to explain why the MCAS problem is harder for even the best trained pilots to respond/recover from than a more run of the mill stabilizer trim problem. Anyways, this guy is trained on the 737 among many others and has spent most of his civilian career in 767 and 777. I am sorry if someone has already linked to this guy or video but he is as experienced as a pilot you can find when it comes to everything from single engine prop to multi engine jet.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by KGEG View Post
                                This guy has become one of my favorite Aviation Youtubers. He explains his experience as a pilot the first 5 minutes or so then goes on to explain why the MCAS problem is harder for even the best trained pilots to respond/recover from than a more run of the mill stabilizer trim problem. Anyways, this guy is trained on the 737 among many others and has spent most of his civilian career in 767 and 777. I am sorry if someone has already linked to this guy or video but he is as experienced as a pilot you can find when it comes to everything from single engine prop to multi engine jet.

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ts_AjU89Qk
                                Thank you there's nothing to add, hélas

                                Comment

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