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Thread: Breaking news: Ethiopian Airlines flight has crashed on way to Nairobi

  1. #161
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    This is a 737 classic Gabe.
    I know, but the trim wheels are the same in the NG and MAX. It was to illustrate how conspicuous the look and noise of the wheels is when spinning.

    Let me find you another video with the NG and the MAX.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highkeas View Post
    I just read (or heard on TV) that Germany can't review the Max black boxes because they are a new type and they do not have read-out equipment.
    My understanding is that although the airline has indicated possible review locations are the UK, France or Germany, the Ethiopian authorities are on record as stating they want the boxes to go to the UK. Apparently "to ensure that U.S. experts won’t have undue influence in the probe of the American-made plane".

    http://fortune.com/2019/03/13/ethiop...h-black-boxes/

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
    The NTSB is an independent agency that is not linked to the FAA (besides also being a U.S. government agency).
    Am very well aware of that, Peter, but the NTSB is also only in a position to make recommendations, which may or may not be accepted by the FAA. The latter agency takes action and makes the decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    You just described EVERY US airline. thank you.
    Not remotely. I hold no brief for US carriers, but I think you have to make a distinction between business/economic priorities and safety culture. In the latter arena the US is second to none.

  5. #165
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    This is a 737 classic Gabe.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4MAaTEm9j8

    Look immediately before and after the go-around (I would say from 1:50 on)

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  6. #166
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    The FAA just posted the order banning 737Max flights in the USA
    https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/med...ency_Order.pdf

    I assume Boeing will get an exemption to the US flight ban to allow flight tests with whatever improvements it adds to the aircraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highkeas View Post
    The FAA just posted the order banning 737Max flights in the USA
    https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/med...ency_Order.pdf
    Section 3 para 2 under "Basis For Order" makes for very interesting reading.

  8. #168
    Senior Member B757300's Avatar
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    Boeing obviously will be allowed to fly the aircraft when necessary for testing purposes.

    That said, hopefully now the absolute insane level of hysteria will abate.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashcrash View Post
    Section 3 para 2 under "Basis For Order" makes for very interesting reading.
    Yes, it says.... nothing.

    It just lists both accidents and says "On March 13 the investigation of ET302 developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities between ET302 and JT610 that warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents [sic] that needs to be better understood and addressed"

    I'd love some clarification on the bold part. The underlined part is a lot of words to say that there might be something but we really don't know.

    I think that thy now they know more than they are making public.

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  10. #170
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B757300 View Post
    Boeing obviously will be allowed to fly the aircraft when necessary for testing purposes.
    Everybody will be allowed to fly the plane with special permits for non-commercial purposes (like bringing back the plane that just landed in Punta Cana).

    This immediate ban on all take-offs will have a strong impact on operations. Think how many MAX were about to make a flight with PAX and how many landed in a destination where they were supposed to board pax and now there is a plane and there is no other plane to bring these pax. Even in significant cases the ban goes into effect in say 48 hours or so to give time to the airlines to take measures to minimize the impact. They either have information that make them think that the plane is a flying death trap or they are over-reacting.

    Even the rudder hard-over issue had a timeline of many years to comply with.

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  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by B757300 View Post
    That said, hopefully now the absolute insane level of hysteria will abate.
    Amongst air safety regulators? I would have thought the concern should have been why the FAA were so late to the party. Still better late than never and, thankfully, there has been no loss in the delay.

    I presume the debate now moves to whether the planned April update will be sufficient to fix the issue or whether we will need a greater understanding of the issue and why two crews failed to overcome it - the second crew presumably well aware of the disconnect option. A combination of a design issue complicated by human factors?

  12. #172
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4MAaTEm9j8

    Look immediately before and after the go-around (I would say from 1:50 on)
    It's a shame that trim isn't something that is routinely used except in extreme circumstances. Maybe pilots would be more familiar with it if it was.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Gabe. Good that we are here at the same time. That happens very rare doesn't it. 2 questions where I haven't yet found an answer for.

    1. Today somebody asked me if beyond the type rating for, and that is my example, Boeing 737-800, you need something else
    to fly a Boeing 737 Max 8.

    That's a question which I'm not able to answer. Let me see how many changes happened in a 747 cockpit since 1989.
    B744 (inauguration flight 1989).
    B748 (first flight with Lufthansa colors: November 2011, first appearance in the LH schedule, 2012).

    So, since 2012 there has not really been big changes in a 747 cockpit, if you ask me.

    And now the 737 Max 8.

    2. 737 Max 8, with a completely new cockpit, cp type 737-800?

    I admit, two questions in only 1 entry.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  14. #174
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    It's a shame that trim isn't something that is routinely used except in extreme circumstances. Maybe pilots would be more familiar with it if it was.
    I didn't get the joke/sarcasm/irony/whatever, because you are obviously not serious with that.

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  15. #175
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    Gabe. Good that we are here at the same time. That happens very rare doesn't it. 2 questions where I haven't yet found an answer for.

    1. Today somebody asked me if beyond the type rating for, and that is my example, Boeing 737-800, you need something else
    to fly a Boeing 737 Max 8.
    Yes, you do need more. Being rated for the 737-NG doesn't automatically authorize you to fly the MAX.
    Now, if you are a 737-NG pilot, the transition to the MAX will be much shorter and abbreviated.

    2. 737 Max 8, with a completely new cockpit, cp type 737-800?
    No, it is not. Any 737-NG pilot will feel at home in the cockpit of a 737 MAX.
    There are improvements made to the MAX but the cockpits, displays, indicators, switches, buttons, levers, layout, etc, are definitively quite similar.

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  16. #176
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I am fed up of "we have evidence", "there is new information", "new data suggests that"...

    Why sin't anybody saying clearly this, this, and that suggest that this incident can be related to MCAS?
    There is a time and place for silence...For example someone should have waited a bit before they said, "the control column was pushed full forward"...A lot of lawyer profit AND Boeing's curtains are riding on this and when "something is said", it may be used against you in a court of law...

    Remember the ultimate parlour talk comment: WFTFR
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  17. #177
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    There is a time and place for silence...For example someone should have waited a bit before they said, "the control column was pushed full forward"...A lot of lawyer profit AND Boeing's curtains are riding on this and when "something is said", it may be used against you in a court of law...

    Remember the ultimate parlour talk comment: WFTFR
    Not if you just report factual information.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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  18. #178
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I didn't get the joke/sarcasm/irony/whatever, because you are obviously not serious with that.
    Sarcasm correct, but that you don't get it- serious eye-roll:

    1) You are usually the one that is thorough.

    2) What good is a noisy trim wheel if you aren't familiar with it and the process of trimming.

    So- you demonstrate a nice noisy wheel...and maybe pilots also use it a lot and are familiar with it?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  19. #179
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Not if you just report factual information.
    Ok...two very new airplanes descended into the ground, probably against the pilot's wishes...and there's a new, not-so-redundant, slightly relentless push over system...maybe we should park the airplanes and check on things.

    I'm very much with you on the lack of hard proof...but I dunno- we've grounded "fleets" before for the sake of caution...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    There’s one thing that I’m starting to miss when being flown around the world. I’m missing being flown by highly experienced, highly trained ex military pilots, preferably who at some time in their career had someone shooting at them. The kind of pilots who don’t f**k about with a keyboard when something unusual happens but who just instinctively know what to set the controls to to maintain a reasonable semblance of level flight and thus gain them some more time to work out what is happening.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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