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Thread: Breaking news: Ethiopian Airlines flight has crashed on way to Nairobi

  1. #41
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    From AVHerald:

    On Mar 11th 2019 two listeners on frequency reported independently the crew declared emergency shortly after normal departure, while in the initial climb, reporting they had unreliable airspeed indications and had difficulties to control the aircraft. The listeners could not hear later transmissions due to frequency changes.
    There is a similarity now...

  2. #42
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
    From AVHerald:



    There is a similarity now...
    FAA Issues Continued Airworthiness Notification (CAN) 2019-03
    Until they issue an AD specifically requiring AoA sensor redundancy for the MCAS function, this thing is unsafe at any speed.

    (that little dot at the end is a period)

  3. #43
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
    R.I.P all on board. I know I might be jumping the gun here, as this is another 737-MAX accident could this be the same problem as the Lion Air crash with the MCAS being involved.
    You can say, bah, only 41 years old, is he really able to tell stories out of his experience?! I know, I can't really compete against Gabe, who this year becomes 42. But.

    MCAS, that's the word which was also used in German TV news! Oh man, thanks alot for this word!

    So, if you ask me, we definitely agree in this question. MCAS is a very bad computer. Why very bad. Well, because MCAS has killed two brandnew Boeing 737s and

    320 human souls!

    PS: You can further ask me, how do I come to that conclusion. Well. I'm here on this platform since more than 1 decade, with 1 special nickname.

    And I'm really not able to remember a 747 accident which was caused by too much computers on board.

    Since yesterday, the type 737 Max-8 is no longer able to fly in China.
    You can tell me more, but as far as I can remember,
    since 1989 that has never been the case for the type B744. I'm really proud to say that Randazzo, and after him me, has chosen two a/c types for the simulator, B744 and B748,

    where the two pilots in the cockpit say the N1 numbers, the AoA, the climb rate, the moment in time when to retract gear/when to reduce flaps to zero, et cetera!!!

    !

    No computer involved in a B744, or, definitely not BEFORE the F/O or the Captain has engaged one! That's a fact, which, if not already fulfilled, I'd definitely ask Boeing to fulfil, if I were LH 747 fleet Captain.
    A LH-B744 Flight Captain is able to swich off ALL computers on board, or he does not board the a/c!
    Last edited by LH-B744; 03-12-2019 at 12:54 AM. Reason: 737 Max-8 grounded in China.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  4. #44
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    "FAA Issues Continued Airworthiness Notification (CAN) 2019-03"

    So the 'American' administration issue a CAN for an American built plane, with a 'nothing to see here until it's proven otherwise', wonder what responses we'd get from 2 Airbuses having similar issues???

    The MAX-8 now 'looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck'

  5. #45
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Until they issue an AD specifically requiring AoA sensor redundancy for the MCAS function, this thing is unsafe at any speed.

    (that little dot at the end is a period)
    This is what I try to say in my #43. Incredible, isn't it.

    For an a/c type, 737 Max-8, who had his first commercial flight less than 24 months ago,
    on May 22nd, 2017, if I'm correctly informed by en wiki.

    I don't say that all a/c types who we operate here at my favorite airline are the best. But with the support of your #42, I'm definitely able to say,

    good that on this planet nothing exists like a LH-737Max8 !
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaztr View Post
    So the 'American' administration issue a CAN for an American built plane, with a 'nothing to see here until it's proven otherwise', wonder what responses we'd get from 2 Airbuses having similar issues???
    Airbus got a hard requirement for triple redundancy on systems that override pilot commands. They got that from the FAA back in the mid-eighties. Boeing on the other hand....

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    This from a B777 pilot says it all.
    I highly doubt that "most 777 drivers" hand-fly until 10,000'. Although...considering that many of them (at least among US carriers) are ridiculously senior and barely fly at all, who knows, maybe they do more manual work than I think...

  8. #48
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    And there is another major airline who never operated such a computer overloaded thingy. One European major airline, in the air since 99,78 years..

    Koninklijke... where is our Dutch Diesel when we really need him.

    KLM. Is this an aviation secret? Do never operate computer overloaded thingies, if there is nobody in your favorite airline who has learned

    switch off ALL computers on board.

    PS: Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, that definitely is a Star Alliance member airline, so, one of our dearest colleagues. The ET-737Max8 Flight Captain on this flight had...
    enough flight hours to theoretically not have to been killed by a very very stupid computer system!
    He definitely owned enough flight hours so that he was not killed by the computer systems on board an ET-737-800,
    definitely not to be confused with the 737-Max8 !

    An expierienced Flight Captain, killed by a (new) computer system on board a Boeing?!

    That's (not only) my topic, but one of those where I'd ask more questions than in another topic.

    PS: Only 1 second ago, I received the 2nd computer failure here on my private cpu. Since.. since when am I online, let's say since clearly less than 4 hours!
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  9. #49
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    I highly doubt that "most 777 drivers" hand-fly until 10,000'. Although...considering that many of them (at least among US carriers) are ridiculously senior and barely fly at all, who knows, maybe they do more manual work than I think...
    You don't really think of 'The Moustache', don't ya. As in 99,78 % of the time which we are here together, I Like to second what you've just mentioned. You don't become LH-A320 Flight Captain when you're younger than me. This is only a rough guess by me. But the following thing is for sure:

    Especially not, if your second profession is LH CEO. Until today I don't know if he's also a jetphotos member. So, again my rough guess, of course only concerning my avatar!

    You can hand-fly a 747 (Randazzo simulator), without 1 computer on board engaged. As one of the test pilots in February 1969 said about the new born 747 baby:
    'She's ridiculously easy to fly.'

    I'd not recommend 'my baby' (my avatar) for a bloody aviation beginner, who does not know the important difference between a Beech Baron 58 and a Beech King Air 350,
    the urgently needed TORA (ISA), as I would say.

    On board a 747, the pilots are kings. If that weren't the case, I had definitely changed my nickname during the last decade.
    Not for nothing, the type 747 is in the air since more than 50 years, plus the B744 since more than 30 years (with PW4000 engines since January 1989).

    Compare that to the 737-Max8 (with mcas failure since 2017?).
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  10. #50
    Junior Member birdguts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
    Selling trips on pilotless aircraft will prove extremely difficult... and personally, I would never travel on a pilotless plane.
    In 2040, they will laugh at your comments.

  11. #51
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    Singapore's CAA halts all 737 MAX arrivals and departures at Changi

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47534292

  12. #52
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    MCAS is a very bad computer. Why very bad. Well, because MCAS has killed two brandnew Boeing 737s
    What???? How do you come to that conclusion?
    PS: You can further ask me, how do I come to that conclusion. Well. I'm here on this platform since more than 1 decade, with 1 special nickname.

    And I'm really not able to remember a 747 accident which was caused by too much computers on board.

    Since yesterday, the type 737 Max-8 is no longer able to fly in China.
    Ah, ok.
    No, wait. What??? How are the facts that there was no 747 accident due to too much computer and that the 737 Max-8 is suspended in China any help to come to the conclusion that the MCAS kileed 2 737s????

    No computer involved in a B744, or, definitely not BEFORE the F/O or the Captain has engaged one! That's a fact, which, if not already fulfilled, I'd definitely ask Boeing to fulfil, if I were LH 747 fleet Captain.
    A LH-B744 Flight Captain is able to swich off ALL computers on board, or he does not board the a/c!
    Do you know what is a FADEC? Do you know what the F and the A stand for in FADEC? Do you know that the 747-400 and later (maybe the -300 too) has 4 of those FADEC? Do you know that the 747 cannot fly with all 4 FADEC operational?

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  13. #53
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  14. #54
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    What???? How do you come to that conclusion?

    Ah, ok.
    No, wait. What??? How are the facts that there was no 747 accident due to too much computer and that the 737 Max-8 is suspended in China any help to come to the conclusion that the MCAS kileed 2 737s????



    Do you know what is a FADEC? Do you know what the F and the A stand for in FADEC? Do you know that the 747-400 and later (maybe the -300 too) has 4 of those FADEC? Do you know that the 747 cannot fly with all 4 FADEC operational?
    OH BOY. Don't make me use upper case! If I used as much !!! than you in your #52, seahawk would have catched me and gave me three infractions, instead of 1. Or do you like to taste Italia vs Argentina?!

    Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or short MCAS. Sorry, but to calm you down I should again annoy you with the German language. You translate it? Let's have a try!
    'Boeing [hat] ein elektronisches System namens Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) eingeführt, welches kritische Situationen verhindern soll. Um aber die Umschulung von NG-Piloten auf die MAX-Modelle zu erleichtern, hat Boeing jedoch das MCAS und seine Funktionsweise verschwiegen; nach Angaben von Piloten sei es nicht einmal in den Handbüchern erwähnt worden.'

    Now it's UR turn! What else is the MCAS than a erroneous computer system?!
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    First bird which came down due to MCAS.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  16. #56
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Second bird which came down due to MCAS.

    Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302

    Now You Again. Come ON! Or as Evan always says,

    Let's take another bucket with popcorn. Although Lion Air #610 together with ET #302 is not really an occasion where I must use a smiley.

    That's how I calculated 2 dead 737s, and 320 dead human souls (!).

    Gabe, I'm able to explain almost every misunderstanding between us, if you allow me to do so. Between 17 ?????? .. ? . Nobody is perfect. When ET #302 was shown for the first time on German TV, I also thought, what the hell. Again a 737-Max8.

    And you can tell me more, but afaik one clear difference between a 737-Max8 and a LH-B744 is, that the latter does not need MCAS!
    Last edited by LH-B744; 03-12-2019 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Evan really (almost) always seems to be relaxed when I meet him here..
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

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    Australia (CASA) have now banned all 737 MAX 8 flights in and out of the country - not looking good for Boeing when one of the FAA's 'allies' grounds the fleet
    Last edited by vaztr; 03-12-2019 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Spelling

  18. #58
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    If seahawk does not kick me out due to too much entries in one topic.. Gabe you are not the only man with sorrows.

    The trend seems to be, more n more n more n more passengers. But the main characters on the aircraft market stay the same. So quite bizarre evolution steps do happen.

    B762ER, length 48.1 meter.

    B737-Max8, length 39.5 meter, with the background that there is a -Max10 version, almost 44 meters long.

    What I try to say. The first time when ET #302 appeared on German TV, I thought, it was an overload problem. Four different 737-Max versions, -Max7, -Max8, -Max9, -Max10, with a lenght between 36 and 44 meter.
    But the two engines always stay the same! Imagine the difference between a Fiat 500 and a car which is almost 1.5 times as long as that (78er Chevrolet K30, 4.9 meter?), but still with a Fiat 500 engine with 34 hp.

    If you ask me, that not healthy. And it's a good thing that prolongation with - in case of a doubt - weak engines never took place in a 747.

    And then somebody mentioned MCAS.
    LH also has a intercontinental history, the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955.
    A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    The operator on the DUS - NYC route, on the DUS - BKK route, and on the shiny new DUS - LAS nonstop route? EW, one of the dearest LH daughters .

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years. A whole decade here on this platform.

  19. #59
    Junior Member birdguts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    If seahawk does not kick me out due to too much entries in one topic.. Gabe you are not the only man with sorrows.

    The trend seems to be, more n more n more n more passengers. But the main characters on the aircraft market stay the same. So quite bizarre evolution steps do happen.

    B762ER, length 48.1 meter.

    B737-Max8, length 39.5 meter, with the background that there is a -Max10 version, almost 44 meters long.

    What I try to say. The first time when ET #302 appeared on German TV, I thought, it was an overload problem. Four different 737-Max versions, -Max7, -Max8, -Max9, -Max10, with a lenght between 36 and 44 meter.
    But the two engines always stay the same! Imagine the difference between a Fiat 500 and a car which is almost 1.5 times as long as that (78er Chevrolet K30, 4.9 meter?), but still with a Fiat 500 engine with 34 hp.

    If you ask me, that not healthy. And it's a good thing that prolongation with - in case of a doubt - weak engines never took place in a 747.

    And then somebody mentioned MCAS.
    Good observation. You seem to have a good correlation. Does Airbus have this correlation?

  20. #60
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post
    Second bird which came down due to MCAS.

    Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302
    I am willing to give you that the Lion Air crash was due to the MCAS, even when that's a gross over-simplification and even misleading because the in the previous flight the airplane had exactly the same problem that the crew managed relatively well (at least well enough not to crash) and the airline released the airplane for the next flight without solving the problem and with a crew that did not know how to manage a trim malfunction (induced by an MCAS malfunction induced by a faulty AoA sensor and a design that was not tolerant to a single-sensor failure).

    But the Ethiopian one??? MCAS may have been a factor on that one too, or it may have been not. We just don't know yet. But in the meantime, you CANNOT say that the MCAS downed this plane simply because you have no idea if it did or not. I mean, you can say it if you want, but don't expect people to take you seriously and not to react like I am doing.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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