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Thread: Breaking news: Ethiopian Airlines flight has crashed on way to Nairobi

  1. #1001
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    Answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Yes
    Thank you. (Additional verbiage is OK too)

    Not_Answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel
    "All RJ's now have FBW and autothrottles" + suggestions for Nervocalm.
    Sugerencia para píldoras que mejoran la comprensión & eventual red font.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Blah Blah Blah
    Not sure I totally agree, but will only bet a single beer, recognizing the risk that I might be the one buying.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  3. #1003
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I pointed out that the knowledge required to pilot the aircraft of the present and of the future require a more complex array of traditional airmanship and systems admin expertise. There will be more complexity in understanding these systems and how they alter pilot action requirements and automation behaviors in varying degrees of degradation, when one or more components fail or malfunction. The skill set required to be a pilot will have to involve a strong aptitude for systems.

    [...] a complex knowledge is still required here. For one thing, the transition requires a good understanding of what is lost, how it will affect handling and flight control and what pilot actions are now necessary (such as manual pitch trim or thrust-lock on the A320). For another, the goal of reconfiguration laws is not to remain in manual flight with degraded protections, it is to allow the crew to continue flying while working the problem and restoring systems and autoflight. This is especially true of the direct law and purely mechanical backup levels. Thirdly, in degraded states, pilot commands may still be blended with automated ones in different ways then they are used to under normal conditions and things like flight directors may still be functional but not reliable. Crews must understand and anticipate this.

    I was talking about an increasingly complex understanding of the aircraft, not the physical complexity of the aircraft itself (which may become reduced by technology). I was talking about how, as ever-higher efficiency is demanded from protected aircraft, that efficiency and protection may come from systems such as augmented stability and conditional command interventions. It will come from systems that provide exacting flight surface control beyond human capability. It might even come from wing designs that can reconfigure across their surfaces in much more complex ways. As these systems are added, pilots will have to have a greater systems-side mastery to cope with failures. All of which means the standards for recruiting, vetting and training pilots will have to evolve and the job itself might require a much different mindset with different strengths and talents than those of the past.
    Again, I don't think this will be the path that airliners design will take in the future. Think FADEC. FADEC sorts all issues internally, or it doesn't work. There is no way for a pilot to turn switches or pull breakers to "reconfigure" the FADEC, and there is no automatic internal reconfiguration in the FADEC that ends up with the FADEC working identically from the pilot point of view, or not working at all. Pilot's don't need to understand how the different computers, sensors and other inputs (like the thrust levers position) interact for the FADEC to produce the output it does. There is no FCOM that describes how the FADEC work and what will it do in different failure scenarios. For example, nowhere is it explained that if the FADEC senses an uncommanded reduction in fuel flow it will open the fuel metering valve beyond the normal setting for the required thrust, and that that will not be reflected in a movement of the thrust lever position (even in a Boeing). Oh, and the pilots don't complain that this is not explained, as they did complain of the MCAS, and rightfully, because the MCAS is not self-enclosed and self-troubleshooting like the FADEC. The FADEC has no equivalent to the "cutout switches" that will give you manual control. The pilots DON'T NEED TO KNOW how it works, because the FADEC work out its issues internally with no pilot intervention, doesn't change its behavior (from the pilot's point of view) when doing so, and if it does so incorrectly or what it does is not enough, there is nothing that the pilot can do anyway.

    I think that the design philosophy of the whole airplane will be headed in the same direction. Except:
    - Perhaps with 1 intermediate status between "working" and "not working", which would be a friendly Cessna like (or 747-200 like) direct law coupled with raw flight parameters and raw navigation (but you still can have a simple autoflight, like a Cessna does).
    - Critical information regarding system degradation (with NO performance degradation, but with risk of performance degradation if further system degradation occurs) relayed to the pilot so he can calmly make an informed diversion decision.

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  4. #1004
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Again, I don't think this will be the path that airliners design will take in the future. Think FADEC. FADEC sorts all issues internally, or it doesn't work.
    I don't think FADEC is a perfect metaphor for flight control systems. There are fewer interdependencies and thus fewer failure ramifications. It is also very robust. On the A320, an ENG 1(2) FADEC A (B) FAULT is passive situation, since the B channel simply takes over without ramifications. But an ENG 1(2) FADEC FAULT (where both channels have failed) does have ramifications that pilots need to be aware of.

    On the A320, when you lose FADEC, you lose N1 and N2 limit protections. You lose automated control of engine thrust ratings. You lose automated acceleration and deceleration scheduling. You lose bleed valve scheduling. And then there are system interdependencies. How does an EIU fault affect FADEC? How does an LGCIU fault affect FADEC?

    I get your point about it being all or nothing (if both channels fail). Again, I'm not suggesting that we need to add complexity that allows pilots to start reconfiguring systems in flight beyond what is necessary. I'm just pointing out that, when the systems are designed to reconfigure, the pilots need to know (or have quick reference to) all the ramifications of those reconfigurations.

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post

    On the A320, when you lose FADEC, you lose N1 and N2 limit protections. You lose automated control of engine thrust ratings. You lose automated acceleration and deceleration scheduling. You lose bleed valve scheduling. And then there are system interdependencies. How does an EIU fault affect FADEC?
    Easy there, cowboy. Which engines are we talking about? Which mod status? Also, this is the first time I've ever seen the term "scheduling" used as regards bleed valves. For that matter, which bleed valves are we talking about?

  6. #1006
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I don't think FADEC is a perfect metaphor for flight control systems. There are fewer interdependencies and thus fewer failure ramifications..
    And that's where the added complexity of the systems and their integration and, communication and interaction (which again adds a lot of complexity) comes into play.
    The FADEC has been FA and D since the 70's if I am not mistaken, So we are 40 years ahead of that with the technology. The reliability, speed, capability and memory capacity of the electronics has multiplied many-times-fold since then.

    I have no doubt that the technology and engineering capacity exist TODAY (or 10 years ago) to make it happen.
    I suspect that it did not happen mostly because or regulatory burden and liability issues (if the pilot f-up in a reasonable good design, we will not be liable, if the computer kills everybody on board because of a design or reliability issue we will be liable, even if that happens 1/100th of the times that everybody dies because a pilot f-ups in situations where this technology would have saved the day).
    But there is a point where the steep needs to be taken, An I think that we are reaching this point.

    Again, I'm not suggesting that we need to add complexity that allows pilots to start reconfiguring systems in flight beyond what is necessary. I'm just pointing out that, when the systems are designed to reconfigure, the pilots need to know (or have quick reference to) all the ramifications of those reconfigurations.
    The thing is that we need to add complexity behind the scene to get a simple user interface and a better self-enclosed robust solution. The reconfiguration should have no ramifications other than the added risk because you lost some redundancy. Just like in a multiple-channel FADEC.

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  7. #1007
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    On the A320, when you lose FADEC, you lose N1 and N2 limit protections. You lose automated control of engine thrust ratings. You lose automated acceleration and deceleration scheduling. You lose bleed valve scheduling. And then there are system interdependencies. How does an EIU fault affect FADEC? How does an LGCIU fault affect FADEC?
    If you loose the FADEC (both channels) for a given engine, you've lost control of the engine. Either the engine will self-shut down or it will keep at a constant fuel metering valve setting, constant stator vanes position, constant bleed air doors setting, etc. t that point the only control you have is cut the fuel and shut it down.

    BUT, the plane can be designed to keep working with automatic thrust, automatic acceleration and deceleration schedules, etc. An engine failure can be made almost transparent for the pilot. Of course he will need to consider that his service ceiling and go-around climb gradient are lower, and that if he looses another engine he is in a glider.

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  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    If you loose the FADEC (both channels) for a given engine, you've lost control of the engine. Either the engine will self-shut down or it will keep at a constant fuel metering valve setting, constant stator vanes position, constant bleed air doors setting, etc. t that point the only control you have is cut the fuel and shut it down.
    I recall the situation with Quantas Flt 32, where the data signal from the thrust levers to the FADEC was severed and the engine remained at its current thrust. I thought it was designed to go to flight idle or even shut down, but then again, that wasn't actually a FADEC failure. In any case, not ideal.

    BUT, the plane can be designed to keep working with automatic thrust, automatic acceleration and deceleration schedules, etc. An engine failure can be made almost transparent for the pilot. Of course he will need to consider that his service ceiling and go-around climb gradient are lower, and that if he looses another engine he is in a glider.
    Yes, but it sort of already is, since the thing has dual, redundant channels. I'm not aware of a case of dual channel FADEC failure. Perhaps a single channel is a MEL item and the second channel failed? I don't have any precedent fo that. Maybe you do...

  9. #1009
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    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48631362


    "I can tell you first hand that the startle-factor is real, and it's huge. And it absolutely and it quickly interferes with one's ability to quickly analyse the crisis and take effective action."

    "Within seconds, these crews would have been fighting for their lives in the fight of their lives."

    "While everyone has a duty to keep passengers and crew safe, he said, 'first, we should design aircraft for them to crew that do not have inadvertent traps set for them'".

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    Boeing sued by more than 400 pilots in class action over 737 MAX's 'unprecedented cover-up'


    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...7-max/11238282

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48631362


    "I can tell you first hand that the startle-factor is real, and it's huge. And it absolutely and it quickly interferes with one's ability to quickly analyse the crisis and take effective action."

    "Within seconds, these crews would have been fighting for their lives in the fight of their lives."

    "While everyone has a duty to keep passengers and crew safe, he said, 'first, we should design aircraft for them to crew that do not have inadvertent traps set for them'".
    Totally agree! Where are safe airplanes designed for the crew?

  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaztr View Post
    Boeing sued by more than 400 pilots in class action over 737 MAX's 'unprecedented cover-up'


    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...7-max/11238282
    i'm gonna go on the record and state that this suit will fail. i haven't read the actual complaint, but i'm guessing that no single airline has furloughed 400 pilots as a result of the max grounding.

  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Ok so maybe it is time to define "complex" and how to measure complexity.
    If accurate, this article is suggesting there may be another failure mode that creates runaway stabilizer trim, this one related to a microprocessor failure:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/polit...law/index.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by flashcrash View Post
    If accurate, this article is suggesting there may be another failure mode that creates runaway stabilizer trim, this one related to a microprocessor failure:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/polit...law/index.html
    Yep, just read that. Guessing it has to do with error handling in the case of lost input. I guess the good news is that they are doing thorough non happy path testing.

  15. #1015
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    so, if anyone was looking for evidence of a corrupt corporate culture, here it is: "Boeing agrees with the FAA's decision and request, and is working on the required software..."

    really? how mighty nice of you to "agree" with the certifying agency's decision. clearly, in the past, boeing didn't "agree," did things their own way, and killed 346 people.

    and they continue to put profit over safety: "Boeing has proposed computer-based training which could be completed quickly and on an iPad." cuz ya know the airlines are gonna demand that boeing pay for REAL training since they promised no additional training costs....

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    Somewhat terse statement from FAA:

    https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=93206

  17. #1017
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    Outsourcing...
    Boeing has informed the FAA that certain 737NG and 737MAX leading edge slat tracks may have been improperly manufactured and may not meet all applicable regulatory requirements for strength and durability.

    Following an investigation conducted by Boeing and the FAA Certificate Management Office (CMO), we have determined that up to 148 parts manufactured by a Boeing sub-tier supplier are affected. Boeing has identified groups of both 737NG and 737MAX airplane serial numbers on which these suspect parts may have been installed. 32 NG and 33 MAX are affected in the U.S. Affected worldwide fleet are 133 NG and 179 MAX aircraft.
    There was an incident of an aircraft (can't recall if it was a 737) catching on fire on the ground as the result of a slat track issue. I think it resulted in a fuel tank breach. I'll have to find it...

  18. #1018
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    Here it is: China Airlines Flt 120, indeed a 737NG:

    https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/ll_ma...=65&LLTypeID=2

    Probably a failure unrelated to the current issue, but it illustrates how a seemingly innocuous issue involving a slat mechanism can have catastrophic consequences.

  19. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    and they continue to put profit over safety: "Boeing has proposed computer-based training which could be completed quickly and on an iPad." cuz ya know the airlines are gonna demand that boeing pay for REAL training since they promised no additional training costs....
    That is industry standard for differences training.

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  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    That is industry standard for differences training.
    Not quite, but I take your point.

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