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Thread: Question to Boeing Bobby: PIO

  1. #21
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Gabe, you did kind of blow in spewing lengthy pontifications inferring a grand expertise...kind of.

    Yes, this was relevant to Moscow- and Porpoising is an oscillation that a pilot can induce...

    As to Gabriel's 4-step process, I say bullcrap for practical use. Sure, it's theoretically valid, but your thousand or so Super jet landings have never ever gone bouncy before, but you get hit by lightning and I've heard the term "alternate law" invoked...I kind of doubt you can train using your method to instantly nip the landing in the bud.
    As I said, call it PIO if you want, I am fine with that, but it is a different kind of PIO for which the 4 steps don't apply. For that case:
    While there are techniques to recover (basically, hold a nose-up landing pitch attitude instead of push down to try to keep the nose gear on the floor), the best one is what BB said.
    The 4-steps process is what pilots do all the time to avoid oscillations or chasing the x (replace x with your parameter of choice). They do it without realizing that they are doing it. As I've said, it is easier to do than say. The difference is that in a "traditional" PIO it becomes more important that you actively oppose rate instead of relying in natural damping.

    Bobby did give a good answer- "THE" solution is probably something along the lines of DO NOT nose over and be liberal with the coal lever. I suppose another method is to be hyper sensitive to attitude and try to "lock" the plane in a healthy nose up attitude and either fly it away or fly it back down.
    Yeah, I agree (or you agree?) with this supposition.

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  2. #22
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    ***The 4-steps process is what pilots do all the time to avoid oscillations***
    Expeletive-laden, ban-worthy, personal flame attack...[Sorry to get personal, Brian]

    Again we are beating AROUND the issue...

    "What pilots do all the time"....to put words in your mouth: "without even thinking about it".

    Without specific training, I became better at managing 172 landings...

    I was wondering more about genuine techniques that might be discussed, or even practiced.

    What is see is that you did your normal engineer thing and came up with a slightly complex, WRITTEN procedure...but I think that's done mindlessly.

    I don't think we KNOWINGLY follow any procedure at all...Other than maybe "think twice before a significant nosing over input, nose up and power ready..."

    I am comfortable that there's no magical things that are taught to real pilots...I'd would still be curious to hear from a Lear-jet jock- If it has a PIO/Porpoise problem, it's probably that it's a fast, responsive little SOB...

    Edit: I may be asking for a Linden coffee cup or something...
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    "What pilots do all the time"....to put words in your mouth: "without even thinking about it".

    Without specific training, I became better at managing 172 landings...

    I was wondering more about genuine techniques that might be discussed, or even practiced.
    There is where this part kicks in:

    The difference is that in a "traditional" PIO it becomes more important that you actively oppose rate instead of relying in natural damping.
    This is something that can possibly be practiced (but it is not AFAIK).

    For example, say that you are in a bank and want to roll back wing levels. NORMALLY, you would deflect the ailerons as necessary to achieve the desired roll speed (you need to keep roll input to keep a constant roll speed because the roll damping makes a moment on the opposite way) and when you approach the wings level attitude you start to center the ailerons letting the roll damping stop the roll.

    Now, if you are very close to the stall, the roll damping can be almost zero (or even negative). In that situation, when you want to roll back to wings levels you need to use the ailerons to establish the desired roll rate and then center the ailerons and keep doing small inputs to either side to keep the plane rolling in the desired direction and at the desired rate, and apply opposite ailerons to stop the roll as you approach the wings level attitude.

    I've tried that in sophisticated simulators like the 10-years-old MSFS X and the one embedded in Google Earth, and I eventually manged to keep the plane flying under control and turning and leveling off as desired where otherwise I was losing control always getting one wing going down deeply and then I would recover only to have the other wing going down deeply again. Yes, I know that the dynamics of these sims will not be too close to reality especially this far in the envelope, but I knew of this technique in theory and tried it where I could and it worked. Someday I will try it in a real plane.

    And, again, all this does NOT apply in a bounced porpoising landing, where the situation is completely different (you have strong external forces suddenly appearing and disappearing in the landing gears). As I said, for that, hold a normal nose-up landing attitude, don't push down to go down or to try to keep the nose wheel on the ground. Or better, go around.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Unless the plane is already on fire, go around.
    Short version.

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    Hey I finally got on this forum.

    My response: You remember how you were taught to make a cross wind landing? Push the nose out of the crab, then roll the upwind wing down and land that landing gear first.

    There's another way to use that technique. When you flare and oops, I'm just a little to high, instead of holding off waiting for the ground to come up, just roll one or the other main gear onto the ground. The other gear will follow as well as the ground spoilers. No need to push the nose down as that has the chance of several undesired effects.

    I first taught that technique in a C-120 when my student had trouble with wheel landings. I've used it in all the tail wheel planes I've flown up to the B-17. When I got into jets it helped as well. The DC-9-10 shot 3000lbs of hydraulic press to the ground spoilers the minute it sensed wheel spinup, bang you felt like the struts bottomed. Touching one gear first took a little out of it. The DC-8 was a little harder as 8 deg of bank you'd get an engine cowling (70 series with CFM). The B-747 was a little different because you are landing first on the body gear. Lastly I flew the Hawker 1000 and Citation X (trailing link gear).

    That technique has prevented me and my students from any kind of PIO, bounced landing or whatever.

  6. #26
    Member ATLcrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kent olsen View Post
    I first taught that technique in a C-120 when my student had trouble with wheel landings. I've used it in all the tail wheel planes I've flown up to the B-17. When I got into jets it helped as well. The DC-9-10 shot 3000lbs of hydraulic press to the ground spoilers the minute it sensed wheel spinup, bang you felt like the struts bottomed. Touching one gear first took a little out of it. The DC-8 was a little harder as 8 deg of bank you'd get an engine cowling (70 series with CFM). The B-747 was a little different because you are landing first on the body gear. Lastly I flew the Hawker 1000 and Citation X (trailing link gear).
    Where did you end up after Evergreen?

  7. #27
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    I quit EIA in 2001 when I thought Del was going to sell and as a management pilot wasn't sure about my future.

    I interviewed with NetJets and picked the Hawker 1000. I took a big pay cut but was told the new contract, 4 months away would be big. Sure, well it took 4 years for the contract to be approved. Just as I was ready to bail we did get the contract and I choose to move to the Citation X. NetJets is not a bad company to work for. I worked to age 72 but they just changed that to 70. Fly from home, good benefits, pick your schedule and well maintained equipment.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    Facts which have nothing to do with the direct subject. This is getting too personal.
    Not really. The question was addressed to only one person. Nobody else should have responded.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    Not really. The question was addressed to only one person. Nobody else should have responded.
    You mean it was a... what you might call... private message? Last I checked, "forum" meant an open group discussion.

  10. #30
    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    You mean it was a... what you might call... private message? Last I checked, "forum" meant an open group discussion.
    Exactly. ATLcrew, if you only wish to communicate with an individual then that is what the PM facility is for.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  11. #31
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Gasoline and popcorn for all...

    Edit: And a procedure check. Next time LHB posts one of his creative masterpieces, Brian will use the PM feature instead of the discussion forum.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  12. #32
    Senior Member BoeingBobby's Avatar
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    Hey, you can't blame me for this one!

  13. #33
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Hey, you can't blame me for this one!
    There is a lllloooonnnngggg history of you pilots razzing we parlour talkers. Admittedly, the Internet is not as long as your ETOPS DC-3 stuff, but it keeps things entertaining.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  14. #34
    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Gasoline and popcorn for all...

    Edit: And a procedure check. Next time LHB posts one of his creative masterpieces, Brian will use the PM feature instead of the discussion forum.
    My last reply was specific to ATL and a general reminder to all.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    My last reply was specific to ATL and a general reminder to all.
    I was under the impression you were no longer a moderator. Has that changed?

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