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Thread: Helicopter crashes onto roof of Manhattan building in poor weather.

  1. #21
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    Not uncommon with rotorcraft pilots.
    As I think about my incredibly limited chopper riding experience- they don't have much of an instrument panel.

    Also, helicopters should not be blasting into clouds at 100+ knots- they have a good bit more flexibility to stay below them + a lot more flexibility on where to land.

    Never thought about it that much- but makes sense.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Fixed.
    Gabriel...your sense of humor...the ISO 9000 is shining.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Attachment 25492

    Evan in his parents basement.
    Wrong.

    There might be fundamental airmanship involved in that picture.

    HERE is Evan reading procedure and engineering manuals to try and figure out what pilots do wrong:

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    As I think about my incredibly limited chopper riding experience- they don't have much of an instrument panel.

    Also, helicopters should not be blasting into clouds at 100+ knots- they have a good bit more flexibility to stay below them + a lot more flexibility on where to land.

    Never thought about it that much- but makes sense.
    There are helicopters that even have FMS and autopilot with autohover, but they're uncommon. Many are IFR-equipped, but not certified.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    There are helicopters that even have FMS and autopilot with autohover, but they're uncommon. Many are IFR-equipped, but not certified.
    IFR equipment aside, I BELIVE I heard some things (reports of a radio call?) to the effect that the pilot was in mechanical distress and somewhat desperate to land?

    Most of the time, the weather doesn't go COMPLETELY nor instantly to zero-zero and you might slow down to 15 knots and find someplace to put it down...I recognize it's New Yark, but...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    There are helicopters that even have FMS and autopilot with autohover, but they're uncommon. Many are IFR-equipped, but not certified.
    I think an AW109 operating out of Manhattan probably has at least an aftermarket GPS nav thingy if not a factory display.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Now an NTSB report puts him back over the East River, completely contradicting previous reports.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC

    The report says about five to seven minutes after take-off, he then "contacted Atlantic Aviation and made a request to return to the heliport".

    After being advised to land, he then radioed to say he "did not know where he was".

    The NTSB said he flew erratically over the city's East River, changing course and altitude several times before making a dramatic turn and straying over Manhattan.
    How can an AW109 pilot not have a basic GPS display?

    I wouldn't trust the veracity of this reporting however. They've got the wrong building outlined in the picture.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    How can an AW109 pilot not have a basic GPS display?
    I bet that lack of means to know where he was was not the reason why he didn't know where he was.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I bet that lack of means to know where he was was not the reason why he didn't know where he was.
    I think you must be right.

  10. #30
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    This

    ..."did not know where he was"...flew erratically over the city's East River, changing course and altitude several times before making a dramatic turn and straying over Manhattan.
    is not consistent with this

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel
    Pilot was identified and he was apparently a very experienced pilot.
    Yes, Evan, reckless cowboy improvisation could be in play here.

    On MSFS in my basement, with my great expertise, I THINK I would have slowed down, gone someplace safe, got on the radio and calmly sorted out what options were available...It's probably easier in my basement, but I think they actually teach those sorts of things in the real world and that they are often reasonably effective procedures.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I think an AW109 operating out of Manhattan probably has at least an aftermarket GPS nav thingy if not a factory display.
    A109s have been around a while now, some have pretty ancient cockpits.

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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    ***pretty ancient cockpits.***
    I see:

    -Attitude indicator
    -VOR/ILS
    -HSI
    -Radio Tuner

    I know that millennials aren't as good as Bobby or ITS at working that ancient stuff, but I repeat, slow down, climb, communicate, navigate, aviate...

    Could that have potentially been a solution?

    Or Google maps on a smartphone?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    A109s have been around a while now, some have pretty ancient cockpits.

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    Sure, as delivered, but I would expect a machine that expensive operated out of NYC to have a few modern upgrades. How expensive/difficult it it to throw an aftermarket nav unit in there? I think most older GA aircraft have one pasted in somewhere by now.
    I'm leaning towards agreeing with Gabriel. There's a big a missing piece.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Sure, as delivered, but I would expect a machine that expensive operated out of NYC to have a few modern upgrades. How expensive/difficult it it to throw an aftermarket nav unit in there? I think most older GA aircraft have one pasted in somewhere by now.
    I'm leaning towards agreeing with Gabriel. There's a big a missing piece.
    It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    I see:

    -Attitude indicator
    -VOR/ILS
    -HSI
    -Radio Tuner

    I know that millennials aren't as good as Bobby or ITS at working that ancient stuff, but I repeat, slow down, climb, communicate, navigate, aviate...

    Could that have potentially been a solution?

    Or Google maps on a smartphone?
    And a transponder. Call ATC, say I am lost and need vectors. Use the attitude indicator, airspeed indicator, altimeter and the compass in the HSI to follow the vectors.

    But that (or working with a GPS map) can be difficult when you are a VFR pilot in IMC suffering spatial disorientation and using 120% of your brain's bandwidth just to try to keep blue over brown.

    That was my point.

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    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.
    And don't forget the "below that" part.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    That was my point.
    When did you try to make a point and when did I argue against it?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLcrew View Post
    It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.
    Ok, but in the civilized world, aka Manhattan, we generally don't see rusty old skyhawks flying around with their doors missing. I think you can install a panel mount unit for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...

  19. #39
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    I'll give you this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan (modified) View Post
    In the YouTube world, we generally see planes with Go-Pros plastered all over, and a fancy tablet computer with moving map navigation rigged to the yoke...you can install a panel mount unit and all of those Go-Pros for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    rusty old skyhawks
    A very inaccurate view.

    I DO have SOME expertise in operating older 172s from smaller FBOs.

    IFR instrumentation and navigational stuff are questionable.

    The engine is going to have some quirks...the trim may be a bit off, and the windscreen will probably be leaky and maybe a bit faded and crazed.

    Dashboard-faded and cracked. Seats- covered with that new lambs-wool/whatever stuff. Carpet worn.

    You probably have a VOR receiver that works.

    Rust? No- very little rust except for the brake rotors (which you will find on newer 172-S models, too)

    Have you been in a number of 172's in Manhattan? Do you put the trim in the takeoff position before takeoff or cheat one way or another?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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