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American 767 incident at ORD - right wing burned severely

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  • #16
    Originally posted by elaw View Post
    Wow... only 11 seconds between the pilot(s) being informed of fire and initiation of evacuation. That's impressive!

    Yeah I know they're trained to do that etc. but as we all know there have been many instances where the response was not as timely.

    My understanding is that its a judgment call...

    ...if it was only 11 seconds, something makes me think there was a really big sucking meat grinder spooling down next to one of the slides (the reason often given as to why the crew makes folks sit a minute or so)

    Of course, that's where some of our forumites expose their double standard and would grossly violate procedure and pop the exit, while strongly endorsing the procedure to leave carry on effects behind.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      I'm fine with passing judgment. This is a private moment. There are a lot of terrified people here who I am sure do not want their terror captured on video and thrown all over the internet. If you are ever in this situation I trust you will have the decency to not make a public spectacle of it. It's amazing how inconsiderate people have become of their fellow passengers. All they think about is fifteen minutes of social media fame.
      Good point Evan, but privacy (i.e. publishing the video) is a question distinct from recording it, and people are complaining about those recording. I agree with you, privacy should be honoured, even if it trades off with public good. I believe the viewing of these things provide public benefit, but if there are privacy concerns those should override the public good.

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      • #18
        An “uncontained engine failure” caused a fire that ended with the aborted takeoff of an American Airlines plane at O’Hare International Airport, federal officials said Saturday.

        Lorenda Ward, senior investigator in charge with the National Transportation Safety Board, told reporters though no fire breached the cabin of Flight 383, the uncontained engine failure resulted in fuel pooling under the plane’s right wing, which then caught fire.

        About 20 people on the plane were taken to local hospitals with non-life-threatening injuries, and all had been discharged as of Saturday evening, Ward said.

        She added that an examination of one of the plane’s engines found a piece of the turbine had failed.

        One piece of the engine was found in a UPS warehouse about 2,900 feet away from the plane, Ward said. Another piece was found about 1,600 feet away, but it was still on O’Hare property, she added.

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        • #19
          I am not so sure about privacy... As an example, when you fly a drone with a camera, the FAA requires that you do not do so over places where people has a reasonable expectation of privacy. I doubt that an airplane cabin qualifies as such. You just should not expect privacy if you are in a public place.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #20
            the uncontained engine failure resulted in fuel pooling under the plane’s right wing, which then caught fire.
            I always wondered whether it would be safer to keep rolling at a low speed (say 20 kts) waiting for the firetrucks to arrive to avoid such a pool of fuel and strong localized fire under the plane. Check the explosion that happened in the FedEx plane. Imagine that being the center wing tank. On the other hand, you are delaying the evacuation. Tough risk balance.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              I am not so sure about privacy... As an example, when you fly a drone with a camera, the FAA requires that you do not do so over places where people has a reasonable expectation of privacy. I doubt that an airplane cabin qualifies as such. You just should not expect privacy if you are in a public place.
              Are you kidding me? I'm not talking about your legal right to privacy here. I'm talking about having a sense of decency and respect for other people. This voyeuristic age we are living in has largely caused us to overlook that. If you're in a situation like this and people are frightened to the point of panic PLEASE DO NOT MAKE A VIDEO OF THAT. It's so basic...

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              • #22
                We've seen, I think, three hull losses from uncontained engine failure over the past year. The industry still has a long way to go in dealing with the threat of uncontained engine failure, but containing that kind of energy without heavy armour is probably beyond current technological abilities. Perhaps some nanoscience with come up with a lighter armoured material in the future. For now it seems the only prevention lies in more diligent maintenance and inspection. I hope they are looking into that.

                This is also, I think, the third hull loss we have seen from pooling fires under the engine. It makes me wonder if it might be better SOP to keep a very slow taxi going after an engine failure on the ground, onto a turnout or taxiway, for the 1-2 minutes it takes to get emergency services out there to foam the fuel leakage. It would make a larger mess but it could save an airframe and maybe some lives as well...

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  Are you kidding me? I'm not talking about your legal right to privacy here. I'm talking about having a sense of decency and respect for other people. This voyeuristic age we are living in has largely caused us to overlook that.
                  I agree, but it is so tough these days to save your LEGAL right to privacy, that the decency and respect you are asking for would be a nice but unexpected privilege. As you explained.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    This is also, I think, the third hull loss we have seen from pooling fires under the engine. It makes me wonder if it might be better SOP to keep a very slow taxi going after an engine failure on the ground, onto a turnout or taxiway, for the 1-2 minutes it takes to get emergency services out there to foam the fuel leakage. It would make a larger mess but it could save an airframe and maybe some lives as well...
                    I don't know if, before making this comment, you saw my post saying almost exactly the same thing.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Imagine that engine debris had not flown a kilometer away from the aircraft, but cut through it, into the pax!

                      People on board were extremely lucky!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        We've seen, I think, three hull losses from uncontained engine failure over the past year.
                        were those all from the same engine manufacturer?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          I don't know if, before making this comment, you saw my post saying almost exactly the same thing.
                          That's crazy! Not only did I not see it, we must have been writing this at almost the same time. Great minds think alike, eh?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            That's crazy! Not only did I not see it, we must have been writing this at almost the same time. Great minds think alike, eh?
                            And we would be a counter-example?

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              That's crazy! Not only did I not see it, we must have been writing this at almost the same time. Great minds think alike, eh?
                              So, great minds...I'm thinking as you continue to taxi and lay down your fire trail, that there's also fire burning through the wing and the fuel tank and burning up the ventilation system and the good, working meat grinder is running at an even higher RPM to maintain taxi, and you may be sealing off an approach route for fire trucks...

                              ...maybe it's better that you hit the brakes, pop the preferred slides and get on with the evacuation and go ahead and let the fuel pool a bit. (you know, if you delay and the fire spreads and gets too critical, you can't grab your carry on either!).

                              The only thing that might work is if "we" put giant fire extinguisher stations towards the end of the runway and you expedite your taxi there and park under it and push a button on a garage door opener type thing...but wait, no, what if there is serous tire/gear failure, or you are off the runway and stuck...never mind...

                              The con's of your plan seem a bit bigger than your pros on this one.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                                So, great minds...I'm thinking as you continue to taxi and lay down your fire trail, that there's also fire burning through the wing and the fuel tank and burning up the ventilation system and the good, working meat grinder is running at an even higher RPM to maintain taxi, and you may be sealing off an approach route for fire trucks...
                                Well obviously you would have shut down the failed / fire indicated engine, most likely in the case of uncontained failure with the fire handle. With a fuel tank breach you would be trailing fuel but not necessarily burning fuel. Most importantly, you won't have a pool fire below a wing full of potentially explosive fuel. There's little harm in burning fuel if it isn't burning the airplane or filling it with smoke. Meanwhile, you are taxiing maybe 300 ft per minute. That's not going to hinder the fire trucks. I'm talking about kicking off the brakes and leaving the opposite engine(s) just above idle. Once the fire trucks arrive, typically within a few minutes, you can set the brakes, shut down the other engine(s) and do the evac safely.

                                We saw what happens to a moving aircraft with a shrapnel-induced fuel tank breach with Qantas Flt 32. Nothing happens because there is nothing to ignite the fuel and no way for it to accumulate. The danger came in once they were stopped on the runway and fuel started pooling near the brakes.

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