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  • #31
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ***YOUR CESSNA***
    Since you bring up the subject, here's a somewhat analogous YouTube. Tempted to double-post this the rudder reversal thread, but...

    No RC planes in this video but lots of exciting full-sized action from the Flying NZ Central Area Rally held on November 5 2011 at Tokoroa New Zealand.There ...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Since you bring up the subject, here's a somewhat analogous YouTube. Tempted to double-post this the rudder reversal thread, but...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxoacmb7zxY
      Why? I don't see any rudder reversals there.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Why? I don't see any rudder reversals there.
        They aren't always visible... but may be used around touchdown.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #34
          A Near-Fatal Touch Down. Damage to the aircraft is unknown.
          Is this the headline of...
          a) Daily Mirror
          b) AvHerald
          c) Flying Magazine?

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            Since you bring up the subject, here's a somewhat analogous YouTube. Tempted to double-post this the rudder reversal thread, but...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxoacmb7zxY
            Come on, these are little GA piston single planes. Several of them. Why isn't ANYBODY there de-crabbing and touching down with the left gear first?

            These are perfect landing by definition, but "uglily" executed.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              Come on, these are little GA piston single planes. Several of them. Why isn't ANYBODY there de-crabbing and touching down with the left gear first?
              Duh! They were all trained by puppy-mill-wanna-be-airline-pilots-in-the-instructor-phase ROTE TRAINING: Try not to dip the wing much at all lest you scrape engines and wing tips...Stall warning...power up...15 degrees ANU...Questions?...No questions...

              Ok, slightly more serious: I noted that too...and in one instance I also noted the proper rudder input, but the plane still had to crab (more of a kick out than a slip, though)...but indeed, I would have expected more 'leaning into the wind'. In that video it was largely absent.

              Also, I recall that type specific memory checklist POHFCOMQRH items for the 172M were that you wanted good aileron input, lest the wind 'pick up the wing' in an unwanted manner- not sure if that applies to the 172S or not.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                ***Near Fatal Touchdown***

                Is this the headline of...
                a) Daily Mirror
                b) AvHerald
                c) Flying Magazine?
                Remember...there could be right main shimmy-damper failure, runway departure, some other bent stuff, some spilled fuel and sparks and a plane full of Evan's and 3BS's grabbing their laptops as a fire is spreading rapidly....

                ...The headline may be embellished a bit, but not 100% sure there isn't a small shred of truth...
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  Is this the headline of...
                  a) Daily Mirror
                  b) AvHerald
                  c) Flying Magazine?
                  Heart attacks can be fatal...

                  I think the real issue is this: that old adage "Any landing you walk away from is a good landing" doesn't apply to passenger transport.

                  Rule #1: Don't kill the passengers

                  Rule #2: Don't terrify the passengers

                  Rule #2b: Don't gamble with other people's money

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                  • #39
                    Autoland is ONLY for relatively calm conditions...

                    ...and absolute statements are almost always wrong.

                    Most people don't choose to fly on an extremely windy day; however, that is what Boeing's 787 Chief Pilot did. He came from Seattle to Cheyenne, all for the wind.


                    ...doesn't really say that the autoland is designed for high winds or that it has the proverbial, full-feature, rudder-reversing system, but...

                    Gotta say, one of the pictured landings looked very textbook. A little bank into the wind, and a very nice kick-out late in the flare for a more-straight touchdown.

                    I will also say that it looked more like a blistering wind largely down the runway with a slight crosswind component, versus a blistering predominately cross-the-runway wind...
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      ...and absolute mis-quotes are almost always wrong.
                      Fixxed. I said that autoland is not intended for crosswind situations, it's intended for low-visibility ones, but that it can potentially handle them and out-perform pilots in these conditions.

                      http://www.kgwn.tv/content/news/Boeing-tests-out-the-largest-787-in-Cheyenne--458996253.html

                      ...doesn't really say that the autoland is designed for high winds or that it has the proverbial, full-feature, rudder-reversing system, but...

                      Gotta say, one of the pictured landings looked very textbook. A little bank into the wind, and a very nice kick-out late in the flare for a more-straight touchdown.

                      I will also say that it looked more like a blistering wind largely down the runway with a slight crosswind component, versus a blistering predominately cross-the-runway wind...
                      Aircraft like the 777 and 787 can do the rollout in autoland under fairly strong crosswinds. That is the key. The factory-stock NG's can't (maybe the newer ones, data not available).

                      But here is an absolute statement: No ILS, no autoland. So why are we still talking about autoland here?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        But here is an absolute statement: No ILS, no autoland. So why are we still talking about autoland here?
                        Ummmm, no, Evan, this is a modern digital air plane and absolute is a strong word.

                        It might be a small pain, but a glideslope and course can be generated via GPS, RTK, RADALT, and who knows what other cues.

                        Just rewrite some rules and some computer code.

                        The beauty of the system isn't what artificial navigation acronym it reads, it's the real reading of course deviations and real control inputs.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                          Ummmm, no, Evan, this is a modern digital air plane and absolute is a strong word.
                          Umm no, 3WE, this is a 1960's airplane with some modern-ish digital avionics tacked on. It requires ILS for a precision approach and a precision approach for autoland. Absolutely.

                          But you have now gone into the future, so, yes, in the future we will have precise, error-corrected LAAS (GBAS) for these rinky-dink airport circle-in back-course approaches, and that alone will most likely allow for autoland. LAAS will require both new avionics AND precisely surveyed ground installations.

                          Still, placing blind trust in guidance down to the ground requires a virtually infallible technology and that bar is set very high. The beauty of the glideslope signal is that (assuming you catch it in the proper range from the threshold and cross-check your instruments) it is virtually infallible (unless you are a gang of techno-villians in a Hollywood movie). I can't say the same for RADALT.
                          We will have to wait and see when that level of trust can be earned by LAAS, and that's going to be a while... maybe the B797 will one day autoland on Salzburg's runway 33 circling approach...

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            ***Absolutely.***
                            Absolutely, my tractors drive down rows with sub-inch accuracy and no ILS.

                            Absolutely, VOR/ILS is 1950s analog technology.

                            Absolutely, Radar altitude is required for most auto land.

                            Absolutely, terrain databases and real time radar vision exists.

                            Absolutely, you see no beauty beyond procedures...
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              Absolutely, Absolutely, Absolutely, Absolutely, Absolutely...
                              Read all about it:



                              It's probably just a matter of time (and funding, i.e. political will) but it's coming. Until then, this thread has nothing to do with autoland.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                Read all about it:



                                It's probably just a matter of time (and funding, i.e. political will) but it's coming. Until then, this thread has nothing to do with autoland.
                                I thought this thread was about how to do a crosswind landing and a very slight diversion on whether humans or machines are better at doing them.

                                And I absolutely love crosswind landings.

                                But never mind, I will always recall seeing a Lufthansa 747-400 operating in dense fog at 5:00 AM local time in Düsseldorf.
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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