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Passenger forcibly removed from plane due to dog allergy; dogs stay.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    You think there there are circumstances where it's ok to FORCIBLY DRAG a problematic female customer off an airplane. Now I get you.

    You're right. I think differently.
    Like I said, sometimes your pure black and white thinking is a thing of wonder. Absolutely never?...not even if she has a sharp object and making threats, flailing and striking other passengers...cuz that's exactly what you said and those activities are kinda problematic.

    And yes, I stand by my belief that deliberately and maliciously delaying the departure of 100+ law-abiding, cash-paying customers while violating the law, violating right and wrong and violating common sense and being an ass....you ask her nicely a few times, but that's it.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Absolutely never?...not even if she has a sharp object and making threats, flailing and striking other passengers...
      Did she? No. Was she? No. How about making a relevant argument for once...

      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      And yes, I stand by my belief that deliberately and maliciously delaying the departure of 100+ law-abiding, cash-paying customers while violating the law, violating right and wrong and violating common sense and being an ass....you ask her nicely a few times, but that's it.
      Did she, a woman with a serious dog allergy, deliberately board a plane with dogs on board? I'm guessing not. And you might want to look up the word "malice' while you're at it.

      But I get you. You think you should ask nicely (demand nicely, let's be real here) a few times and then, if that doesn't work, bring in the barbarians. I favor a more civilized, albeit costlier and less directly efficient approach.

      Actually, what I favor most is a preventative approach, and this one could have been prevented if the airlines tried some wisdom.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
        You got the small penis bit right......although it was sufficient to satisfy ME !
        Well darn... I thought it was AED-toting I was correct about.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Did she? No. Was she? No. How about making a relevant argument for once...
          Your earlier post indicated you thought force was never justified to remove someone from a plane... his post was 100% relevant to that.

          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Did she, a woman with a serious dog allergy, deliberately board a plane with dogs on board? I'm guessing not.
          She deliberately boarded a plane that *could* have dogs on board, as Southwest like many airlines allows dogs in the cabin. And actually even if a dog were in the cargo hold, if air is being recirculated, allergens could make it into the passenger cabin. A responsible person with a serious allergy would inquire if there were any dogs (or other animals... many pet allergies aren't limited to just one species) on the aircraft before boarding.

          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          I favor a more civilized, albeit costlier and less directly efficient approach.
          Could I trouble you to tell us what approach you *do* favor?

          Don't get me wrong... I'm very strongly against unnecessary violence. But you can't expect the airline staff to stand there asking nicely, without result, until they die of asphyxiation either.
          Be alert! America needs more lerts.

          Eric Law

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            Did she? No. Was she? No. How about making a relevant argument for once.
            Who was it that said ALL WORDS MATTER?

            I kind of doubt that she was making a physical threat...but as Eric pointed out, 1) You were being absolute and 2) Not everyone thinks like you- there are a few additional situations that warrant physical intervention.

            I have evidence to support that she was unlawfully, unethically, and nonsensically and pretty much absolutely refusing to leave the plane AND being an ass about it. Absolute irrefutable evidence, no, but it's a lot more evidence that you have that it was total out of control officials needing a fix of abusing innocent citizens. Nice that continue to dismiss and not mention this...what 3X now?

            For me (and some other people) the refusal to obey a legal, correct and reasonable order (and being an ass) enables 'officials to' Ask nicely a few times and then resort to physical means.

            One other issue, Mr Total Black and White: You can think whatever you want...but I ALSO* think you are very much in the minority that there is 'almost' never a time for physical removal.

            *"ALSO" means in addition to being wrong from legal, ethical and common sense analysis of the situation.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              I have evidence to support that she was unlawfully, unethically, and nonsensically and pretty much absolutely refusing to leave the plane AND being an ass about it. Absolute irrefutable evidence, no, but it's a lot more evidence that you have that it was total out of control officials needing a fix of abusing innocent citizens.
              I have that on video. In flagrante delicto.

              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              You can think whatever you want...but I ALSO* think you are very much in the minority that there is 'almost' never a time for physical removal.
              I'm sure I am. The majority seems to have given up on social evolution.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                I have that on video. In flagrante delicto.



                I'm sure I am. The majority seems to have given up on social evolution.
                Evan, I don't understand what's your proposal? I mean, I understand, but how do you think it would work?

                Crew requests her to please deplane.
                Crew insists that she has to deplane.
                Crew commands that she deplanes.
                Crew threatens that if she doesn't deplane they will be forced to call law enforcement.
                Crew calls law enforcement.
                Police tells her to get off the plane.
                Police orders her to get off the plane.
                Police shouts that she gets of the plane now.
                Don't you think that some path similar these steps existed? What do you do next? Ok, here is what it came next, from the video.
                Police starts to push her.
                She shouts.
                Other passengers tell her that she better obey and get off the plane by herself.
                She says " don't touch me, I will get off by myself".
                Police release her.
                She doesn't move.
                Police shouts her to get out.
                She doesn't move.
                Police grabs her and pushes her.
                He cries she will get off by herself.
                Police releases her.
                She doesn't move.
                Police shouts at her to get off.
                She doesn't move.
                Police grabs her, lifts her, and moves her off the plane.

                Meantime, you had hundreds of paxs waiting in the plane and hundreds of other paxs that wil be waiting for the next flights of this plane.

                By the way, I think that if the police needs to use the force (and I think that in the case there was a need), the right way to do it is this way: Use enough force to totally overpower the person and unharmfully take him/her from A to B as if he/she was an object, avoiding any fight. If it takes 10 cops to take the big guy, 2 from each limb and 2 from the torso, then do it.

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  Evan, I don't understand what's your proposal? I mean, I understand, but how do you think it would work?

                  Crew requests her to please deplane.
                  Crew insists that she has to deplane.
                  Crew commands that she deplanes.
                  Crew threatens that if she doesn't deplane they will be forced to call law enforcement.
                  Crew calls law enforcement.
                  Police tells her to get off the plane.
                  Police orders her to get off the plane.
                  Police shouts that she gets of the plane now.
                  Don't you think that some path similar these steps existed? What do you do next? Ok, here is what it came next, from the video.
                  Police starts to push her.
                  She shouts.
                  Other passengers tell her that she better obey and get off the plane by herself.
                  She says " don't touch me, I will get off by myself".
                  Police release her.
                  She doesn't move.
                  Police shot her to get out.
                  She doesn't move.
                  Police grabs her and pushes her.
                  He cries she will get off by herself.
                  Police releases her.
                  She doesn't move.
                  Police shouts at her to get off.
                  She doesn't move.
                  Police grabs her, lifts her, and moves her off the plane.

                  Meantime, you had hundreds of paxs waiting in the plane and hundreds of other paxs that wil be waiting for the next flights of this plane.

                  By the way, I think that if the police needs to use the force (and I think that in the case there was a need), the right way to do it is this way: Use enough force to totally overpower the person and unharmfully take him/her from A to B as if he/she was an object, avoiding any fight. If it takes 10 cops to take the big guy, 2 from each limb and 2 from the torso, then do it.
                  FIrst of all, I feel pretty confident that the situation wasn't handled very well from the beginning, based on all the other incidents we've witnessed. I already proposed earlier in this thread how that should be done, so that the passenger is made fully aware of the legal and financial consequences of disobeying the pilot in command. My assumption is that the crew just gave her that stonewall policy treatment and demanded that she get off the plane. By now, it's common knowledge that a lot of FA's are nnot well trained for confrontation and may even have personality disorders that antogonize the situation.

                  Secondly, If it came down to a standoff (it probably wouldn't if the above was done well enough), then I would first remove all the passengers back into the terminal, then send in the police to arrest her (with restraint but no more than necessary) and remove her from the aircraft. For obvious reasons, I would also try to get her off though the jetway stairs or separate airstairs so as not to have her arrest exploited by social media.

                  Costly? Sure. But maybe less costly than this media circus fodder in the long term. And probably covered by insurance and certainly the cost of doing business today in a passenger-stressing business model.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    Evan, I don't understand what's your proposal? I mean, I understand, but how do you think it would work?

                    Crew requests her to please deplane.
                    Crew insists that she has to deplane.
                    Crew commands that she deplanes.
                    Crew threatens that if she doesn't deplane they will be forced to call law enforcement.
                    Crew calls law enforcement.
                    Police tells her to get off the plane.
                    Police orders her to get off the plane.
                    Police shouts that she gets of the plane now.
                    Don't you think that some path similar these steps existed? What do you do next? Ok, here is what it came next, from the video.
                    Police starts to push her.
                    She shouts.
                    Other passengers tell her that she better obey and get off the plane by herself.
                    She says " don't touch me, I will get off by myself".
                    Police release her.
                    She doesn't move.
                    Police shot her to get out.
                    She doesn't move.
                    Police grabs her and pushes her.
                    He cries she will get off by herself.
                    Police releases her.
                    She doesn't move.
                    Police shouts at her to get off.
                    She doesn't move.
                    Police grabs her, lifts her, and moves her off the plane.

                    Meantime, you had hundreds of paxs waiting in the plane and hundreds of other paxs that wil be waiting for the next flights of this plane.

                    By the way, I think that if the police needs to use the force (and I think that in the case there was a need), the right way to do it is this way: Use enough force to totally overpower the person and unharmfully take him/her from A to B as if he/she was an object, avoiding any fight. If it takes 10 cops to take the big guy, 2 from each limb and 2 from the torso, then do it.

                    I agree 100% with Gabriel on this one!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      ^^^ + 1 ^^^
                      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        FIrst of all, I feel pretty confident that the situation wasn't handled very well from the beginning, based on all the other incidents we've witnessed.
                        Seriously? Your basis for judging that these people behaved badly is that different people behaved badly during other incidents?
                        Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                        Eric Law

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Evan;653563
                          Secondly, If it came down to a standoff (it probably wouldn't if the above was done well enough), then [B
                          I would first remove all the passengers back into the terminal[/B], then send in the police to arrest her (with restraint but no more than necessary) and remove her from the aircraft.
                          Two questions:

                          1. What if none of them want to get off? (after all, none of them did anything wrong, why should they be inconvenienced?)
                          2. If you had been one of those passengers "removed back to the terminal", how many pages would you have written on this forum about WN's incompetence?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                            Two questions:

                            1. What if none of them want to get off? (after all, none of them did anything wrong, why should they be inconvenienced?)
                            I would have the cops come in and drag them all off.

                            Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                            2. If you had been one of those passengers "removed back to the terminal", how many pages would you have written on this forum about WN's incompetence?
                            One page, about the stupidity of having dogs in the cabin.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              (...)She doesn't move.
                              Police shot her to get out.
                              She doesn't move.(...)
                              (...)
                              Well, that certainly is Police brutality...


                              "I know that at times I can be a little over the top." -ITS

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                One page, about the stupidity of having dogs in the cabin.
                                and this is stupid, why exactly? allergies? really? 55% of the US population test positive to one or more allergies. the number of allergens is likely close to a gazillion. so maybe we should just do away with aircraft altogether.

                                SWA flies 737's which seat at a minimum 137 pax. one person out of 137 is allergic so everyone should be prohibited from bringing their PAID FOR pet on board? yeah, that makes sense...the good of the one....

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