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  • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
    I was more surprised that HE settled so quickly. I seem to recall he was going to become the great warrior and martyr for passenger rights....
    maybe others thought they could use him for that, but i don't recall reading any statements from him or even attributed to him that hinted at that. in fact, he made no public statements between being brutalized for bullshit and last week or so.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Well, you can take heart in knowing that Delta has announced the end of reclining seats on short haul flights. That was the last shred of dignity for we of the economy class, but now perhaps you will have less negative legroom...
      My pet hate. People who insist on reclining their seat into my face and crushing my arthritic knees on a short haul.
      Last edited by brianw999; 2019-04-16, 14:22.
      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

      Comment


      • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
        My pet hate. People who insist on reclining their seat into my face and crushing my arthritic knees on a short haul.
        Been on both sides of the equation. People don't intentionally recline their seat into your face and arthritic knee. The use a service provided by the airline, reclinable seats, and your face and arthritic knee just happen to be there.

        The fault is the airline's that offer the reclining service and at the same time put seats so cramped and crammed that there is about zero legroom already before reclining.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          .......The fault is the airline's that offer the reclining service and at the same time put seats so cramped and crammed that there is about zero legroom already before reclining.
          Very true ...... but then there are people like me who ask the person sitting behind me if they mind me reclining my seat before I do it. I very rarely recline my seat on a short haul economy flight. At an average 7deg of recline in economy there is really no noticeable benefit. The problem doesn’t arise on long haul for me because I fly Premium Economy as a minimum.
          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

          Comment


          • Ok, I guess I am ready for the gubmint to impose a comfortable seat pitch (Gabe, you still may be SOL).

            I generally oppose "big government", but much like the weather-related tarmac disasters, things are better with the new laws.

            I know everything is a trade off- we now have the occasional mass cancellation when large numbers of flights could still be completed with "acceptable" delays, but this is one case where the free market is causing us rats to eat each other.

            This way the marketing department will no longer have creativity to monkey with seat pitch so they can be 'smarter than the competition' and offer a lower fare.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              I generally oppose "big government"
              This.

              You see it often, but what does it mean? Technology came around and there was an industrial revolution. We came to form our identities as tools in the post-industrial-age. What is your name? What do you do? There's no going back.
              Industry became more powerful than the ruling government. They abused this power, employing children and creating harsh, dangerous and often inhumane work environments. That is, unfortunately, human nature among humans lacking in moral compunction.
              Government stepped up, that is to say, the people stepped up through their government and said, no, we demand human dignity and safe working conditions. It worked. Industry, reigned in by government, continued to flourish and prosper.
              Industry must be governed. It will not govern itself by any other principal than growth, market share and profits. Industry seeks to oppress us. In order to maintain freedom, we must regulate industry.
              A narrative was born, born of great investment, that the problem was 'big government'. It tries to convince us that the things that attempt to keep the playing field a fair one are detrimental to our lives.
              Certainly, there is ineptitude and bureaucratic nonsense involved, and certainly this snares progress. But it's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of competence. You don't solve the competence problem by scaling down government.
              Certainly, there is some fat that needs to be trimmed, but most of it lies in the defense department. Oh, we need that to be big. Right. There is no double standard here. Move along...

              Back to seat pitch. The only thing that will gain us more seat pitch is regulation. Otherwise, it is a race to the bottom. Saddles instead of seats (they're in the pipeline). Industry is always coldly poised to abuse our human dignity. Once again, the people, through their government, need to say no. Legislation, compliance and enforcement. We need all three. That involves a government with resources, not a skeletal framework.


              ...this is one case where the free market is causing us rats to eat each other.
              Name one case when it isn't.

              Comment


              • While I would not oppose it, we don't necessarily need to change the seat pitch. Planes do have seats with more seat pitch even if there was no economy plus. Exit and front rows. Just make them available for standard economy price to people higher than say 6' or has specific medical conditions.

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  While I would not oppose it, we don't necessarily need to change the seat pitch. Planes do have seats with more seat pitch even if there was no economy plus. Exit and front rows. Just make them available for standard economy price to people higher than say 6' or has specific medical conditions.
                  Great, I mean you get to be magnificently tall AND have exclusive seats. Meanwhile, the stunted commonfolk are herded in the back...

                  Ok, I get your point. Bigger people need more room. But what if there are twenty people over 6'?

                  Anyway, the problem these days is more often wider people needing more seat width.

                  Comment


                  • and then you get the abusers of the system who will claim all sorts of conditions that require more room. very much like ASKING people in the boarding area if they need assistance to board early. what idiot in their wrong mind wouldn't say "no?" on my flight last thursday, 13% of the plane boarded "needing assistance." in actuality, only 3 required a wheel chair. the remainder walked under their own power carrying and dragging bags heavier than mine. oh! and then there's the bullshit about keeping families together, so that if grandma claims she needs assistance, not only does she board first, her entire entourage of 8 able bodied young folk board with her.

                    there is no secret that airlines are extremely difficult to make profitable. paying executives multi-tens of million dollar salaries works wonders for the bottom line. but aside from that, it really is a nightmare. i've discussed this issue with my now retired finance manager from AA. the enormous complexity of running a major airline is mind-boggling. he would say that AA runs multiple companies: the airline that transports people; a company dedicated to customer service to fix all the fuck-ups of the airline; a human resource/staffing company; a supply and distribution company; a repair company and on and on.

                    i'm obviously not very sympathetic when they screw the pooch, since my view is simply: if you take on the responsibility to transport people, then that's what you need to do. no excuses. but every once in a while i marvel at how something as monstrous as AA, with 7000 flights PER DAY, functions even poorly.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      While I would not oppose it, we don't necessarily need to change the seat pitch. Planes do have seats with more seat pitch even if there was no economy plus. Exit and front rows. Just make them available for standard economy price to people higher than say 6' or has specific medical conditions.
                      Trouble is, I am specifically barred from sitting in an exit row seat because I need disabled assistance from the terminal to the gate due to my not being able to walk long distances....and that’s the crux of my argument. I cannot walk long distances.....but I CAN stand up, operate an emergency exit and assist others out of the aircraft. I also need a seat belt extender which is another airline indicator for disallowing a passenger from using an exit row seat. Cabin crew don’t listen to reason though, they stick with their hard and fast rules. I can understand not being allowed in the window seat but why do I get barred from the middle and aisle seats ? After all, it’s the window seat passenger who is going to operate the door, not me !
                      Last edited by brianw999; 2019-04-17, 11:08.
                      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                        Trouble is, I am specifically barred from sitting in an exit row seat because I need disabled assistance from the terminal to the gate due to my not being able to walk long distances....and that’s the crux of my argument. I cannot walk long distances.....but I CAN stand up, operate an emergency exit and assist others out of the aircraft. I also need a seat belt extender which is another airline indicator for disallowing a passenger from using an exit row seat. Cabin crew don’t listen to reason though, they stick with their hard and fast rules. I can understand not being allowed in the window seat but why do I get barred from the middle and aisle seats ? After all, it’s the window seat passenger who is going to operate the door, not me !
                        You can still use front / bulkhead / class change rows.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          You can still use front / bulkhead / class change rows.
                          Unless I book months in advance the front rows are the first to be prebooked. Front of economy doesn’t help much as the airlines that I use in Europe all operate Airbusses (BA, Air Malta, Iberia) which have Club (business) Class in front of the first economy row with just a curtain separating them. I have in the past asked if I could just sit in an empty Club Class seat and not participate in any of the extras but this request has always been denied to me.
                          My wife and I have taken to prebooking a window seat for me and and aisle seat in the same row for her and this very often results in the middle seat not being allocated which allows some extra legroom.
                          Last edited by brianw999; 2019-04-17, 14:24.
                          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                            Unless I book months in advance the front rows are the first to be prebooked. Front of economy doesn’t help much as the airlines that I use in Europe all operate Airbusses (BA, Air Malta, Iberia) which have Club (business) Class in front of the first economy row with just a curtain separating them. I have in the past asked if I could just sit in an empty Club Class seat and not participate in any of the extras but this request has always been denied to me.
                            My wife and I have taken to prebooking a window seat for me and and aisle seat in the same row for her and this very often results in the middle seat not being allocated which allows some extra legroom.
                            In my experience, the first row of the Economy class (behind the business class separated with curtains) always has more legroom. But I don't remember when was the last time that I flew in a single-aisle plane in Europe.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                              After all, itÂ’s the window seat passenger who is going to operate the door, not me !
                              And if said window passenger was incapacitated secondary to the crash?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                This.

                                You see it often, but what does it mean? Technology came around and there was an industrial revolution. We came to form our identities as tools in the post-industrial-age. What is your name? What do you do? There's no going back.
                                Industry became more powerful than the ruling government. They abused this power, employing children and creating harsh, dangerous and often inhumane work environments. That is, unfortunately, human nature among humans lacking in moral compunction.
                                Government stepped up, that is to say, the people stepped up through their government and said, no, we demand human dignity and safe working conditions. It worked. Industry, reigned in by government, continued to flourish and prosper.
                                Industry must be governed. It will not govern itself by any other principal than growth, market share and profits. Industry seeks to oppress us. In order to maintain freedom, we must regulate industry.
                                A narrative was born, born of great investment, that the problem was 'big government'. It tries to convince us that the things that attempt to keep the playing field a fair one are detrimental to our lives.
                                Certainly, there is ineptitude and bureaucratic nonsense involved, and certainly this snares progress. But it's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of competence. You don't solve the competence problem by scaling down government.
                                Certainly, there is some fat that needs to be trimmed, but most of it lies in the defense department. Oh, we need that to be big. Right. There is no double standard here. Move along...

                                Back to seat pitch. The only thing that will gain us more seat pitch is regulation. Otherwise, it is a race to the bottom. Saddles instead of seats (they're in the pipeline). Industry is always coldly poised to abuse our human dignity. Once again, the people, through their government, need to say no. Legislation, compliance and enforcement. We need all three. That involves a government with resources, not a skeletal framework.




                                Name one case when it isn't.
                                Yeah, Evan, "we" get it. Down with the evil bourgeoisie, power to the people!

                                Not exactly new ideas you're spouting there (although they might be new to you, who knows?).

                                Comment

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