9th Delta workgroup has voted NO the the Unions

[DeltaFlyer]

Almost 70% of my workgroup voted against the IAM...We are now the 9th group to vote No as a majority during the IAM and AFA votes...

countdown to the IAM crying foul and filing interference charges in 5....4....3....2....1.....

If anyone lives near DC, the Delta IFS group will be picketing at the AFA headquarters tomorrow (12-7-10) asking that they listen to the majority voters and drop their interference claims and let that workgroup move forward...afterall, 3 NO votes in 9yrs should tell the AFA something...

[Curtis Malone]

One of the things that I'm sort of curious about is whether or not all these workers who have been voting "no" realize that they're not dealing with Delta management. They're dealing with Northwest people, many of whom would make Frank Lorenzo look like Mother Theresa. I understand it's their lives, their careers and their choice, but I wonder if some of them don't fully appreciate what this choice might mean over the long term.

I hope I'm wrong on this, but I fear I'm not.

[DeltaFlyer]

One of the things that I'm sort of curious about is whether or not all these workers who have been voting "no" realize that they're not dealing with Delta management. They're dealing with Northwest people, many of whom would make Frank Lorenzo look like Mother Theresa. I understand it's their lives, their careers and their choice, but I wonder if some of them don't fully appreciate what this choice might mean over the long term.

I hope I'm wrong on this, but I fear I'm not.

We understand that upper management at Delta is a mixture of both...and what we also realize is that the unions were on NWA property creating an "employee vs. Mgmnt" environment long before any of the current management...The only thing consistent in all the decades of NWA employee discontent was the unions involved not the management group...

As for Frank Lorenzo, where was the union protection at for all his folks?? when it comes right down to it the only thing unions are good for is monthly dues, everything is just a contract that can broken just like any other contract....

Even Pat Friend, retiring president of the AFA, is quoted as saying - "Of the things that will still be here after I am gone, one is the recognition that we can take a lot of things off our bargaining table through legislation" so even the unions understand that with all the labor laws, Unions are loosing their effectiveness...

[Vnav]

when it comes right down to it the only thing unions are good for is monthly dues...

Just don't forget to thank the Delta Pilot's Union when you get your Profit Sharing check....and when you got your post bankruptcy stock....and when the Flight Attendants got the Jumpseat priviledges....or for starting the "Keep Delta my Delta" campaign and thwarting the USAirways takeover....and on and on...

[DeltaFlyer]

Just don't forget to thank the Delta Pilot's Union when you get your Profit Sharing check....and when you got your post bankruptcy stock....and when the Flight Attendants got the Jumpseat priviledges....or for starting the "Keep Delta my Delta" campaign and thwarting the USAirways takeover....and on and on...

I thank the pilots and ALL my Delta co-workers when we get a profit sharing check, shared rewards check and for the post bankruptcy stock awards...We ALL gave up salary and benefits before and during bankruptcy, the pilots weren't alone in that...
Not sure about what jumpseat privilege your referring too, I am not a flight attendant ...
The "Keep Delta My Delta" campaign was started by the Delta Board Council, which is comprised of all employee groups, not just the pilots...
back to the original purpose of this thread - Delta employees have voted time and time again NO to the AFA and other unions trying to organize F/A's and ground staff and we have repeatedly said NO...We do not want a union interfering with our lives...

[Curtis Malone]

We understand that upper management at Delta is a mixture of both...and what we also realize is that the unions were on NWA property creating an "employee vs. Mgmnt" environment long before any of the current management...The only thing consistent in all the decades of NWA employee discontent was the unions involved not the management group...

As for Frank Lorenzo, where was the union protection at for all his folks?? when it comes right down to it the only thing unions are good for is monthly dues, everything is just a contract that can broken just like any other contract....

Even Pat Friend, retiring president of the AFA, is quoted as saying - "Of the things that will still be here after I am gone, one is the recognition that we can take a lot of things off our bargaining table through legislation" so even the unions understand that with all the labor laws, Unions are loosing their effectiveness...

I suppose part of this is the proverbial chicken or the egg question, meaning was the adversarial culture at NW the result of corporate abuse or labor militancy. Probably plenty of both over the decades.

I seem to recall you yourself were laid off or very nearly laid off due to some positions being outsourced to DGS employees at a much lower pay rate. Without representation there is nothing stopping DL management from outsourcing, well, everything. Not saying they will, just saying there will be nothing you'll be able to do to stop them, should they decide to go down that road. And you're certainly right about contracts being broken, but I can't help but wonder if a contract that doesn't exist in the first place is the easiest to break.

Again, I would love to be wrong about this...

[Curtis Malone]

Just don't forget to thank the Delta Pilot's Union when you get your Profit Sharing check....and when you got your post bankruptcy stock....and when the Flight Attendants got the Jumpseat priviledges....or for starting the "Keep Delta my Delta" campaign and thwarting the USAirways takeover....and on and on...

There seems to be a general disconnect between flight crews and everyone else at most airlines, as if pilots exist in their own world and everyone else in their own. Non-crew employees are usually unaware of any benefits they've received due to crew labor efforts. I wonder whose failing that is...

[cegro27]

There seems to be a general disconnect between flight crews and everyone else at most airlines, as if pilots exist in their own world and everyone else in their own. Non-crew employees are usually unaware of any benefits they've received due to crew labor efforts. I wonder whose failing that is...

So, basically you're saying that some or all of the benefits airline employees have gotten has all been thanks to the pilot unions? The last time I checked it took more than pilots to run an airline, so it could be that we've gotten those benefits because it was...oh, i don't know...'the right thing to do' for ALL employee groups...?

The union votes are not so much a vote of rejection of collective bargaining, as it is a rejection of the actual unions wanting to represent us (IAM, AFA, etc.). Once those unions are voted in, they're pretty much there to stay, whether we like them or not. Should the time come for any non-union group at Delta to become unionzied, we want that union to be our own and to actually be run by Delta people that will work on our behalf.

[Curtis Malone]

So, basically you're saying that some or all of the benefits airline employees have gotten has all been thanks to the pilot unions?

Considering that at some airlines (like, Delta, for instance) pilots are the only remaining group with any bargaining power, I don't think the above is an unfair statement.

It's been my experience that management teams (airline or otherwise) very seldomly do "the right thing for all employees" without some prodding.

But maybe times are a'changing...

[Vnav]

When the Delta Pilots NEGOTIATED an ESOP plan in 96, shortly thereafter the other workgroups were vested in the ESOP plan. When the Pilots negotiated a post banruptcy stock claim, the other employees were also given a claim. Pilots negotiate a merger stock grant, other work groups are given stock. Pilots gain improvements in the Delta Pilot Savings Plan, other workers see improvements in their 401k. For the Flight Attendants the parallels are even stronger due to the similarities in the job lifestyles....Pilots negotiate jumpseat benefits, F/As also get them. Pilots negotiate a higher per diem, F/As magically get the same per diem rate.....etc, etc.

For better or worse, on many aspects, the Delta Pilots negotiate for the rest of the employees and often will lose out on certain contractual desires because the company must view any given demand through the prism of what it will cost to give to all the work groups a comparable gain if necessary. If you don't want a union, thats fine.....it's none of my business. But you are naive if you are walking around saying things like unions have no effect or don't benefit me in any way while assuming that events like those above are simply lucky coincidents.

...and for what it's worth, DALPA was the one who organized the DEC 13 the rally to demonstrate resolve against the US airways. Originally it was pilots only, but the other employees were eventually invited. The MEC chairman Lee Moak emceed the thing and provided all the major quotes for the papers the following day. DALPA's very effective government affairs committee got the two Georgia senators involved. What really derailed the attempt was the fact that DALPA was one of the major creditors on the creditor committee and refused to give any Section 1 scope relief making any deal difficult to pull off.

[Curtis Malone]

What really derailed the attempt was the fact that DALPA was one of the major creditors on the creditor committee and refused to give any Section 1 scope relief making any deal difficult to pull off.

I can't imagine Doug Parker's Earth-shattering success with his previous merger helped much.

[T.O.G.A.]

When the Delta Pilots NEGOTIATED an ESOP plan in 96, shortly thereafter the other workgroups were vested in the ESOP plan. When the Pilots negotiated a post banruptcy stock claim, the other employees were also given a claim. Pilots negotiate a merger stock grant, other work groups are given stock. Pilots gain improvements in the Delta Pilot Savings Plan, other workers see improvements in their 401k. For the Flight Attendants the parallels are even stronger due to the similarities in the job lifestyles....Pilots negotiate jumpseat benefits, F/As also get them. Pilots negotiate a higher per diem, F/As magically get the same per diem rate.....etc, etc.

For better or worse, on many aspects, the Delta Pilots negotiate for the rest of the employees and often will lose out on certain contractual desires because the company must view any given demand through the prism of what it will cost to give to all the work groups a comparable gain if necessary. If you don't want a union, thats fine.....it's none of my business. But you are naive if you are walking around saying things like unions have no effect or don't benefit me in any way while assuming that events like those above are simply lucky coincidents.

...and for what it's worth, DALPA was the one who organized the DEC 13 the rally to demonstrate resolve against the US airways. Originally it was pilots only, but the other employees were eventually invited. The MEC chairman Lee Moak emceed the thing and provided all the major quotes for the papers the following day. DALPA's very effective government affairs committee got the two Georgia senators involved. What really derailed the attempt was the fact that DALPA was one of the major creditors on the creditor committee and refused to give any Section 1 scope relief making any deal difficult to pull off.

Here's the thing with a pilots union: Only pilots can fly an aircraft. Ramp rats can be replaced. Maintenance can be deferred and performed elsewhere. When you think about it, pilots make more than many in mgt and have more power. Simple Work to rule orders can cripple a country. So, it's the only group worth having a union.

[juan23]

This is what the IAMAW can do for you........these are a couple of Emails between me and the IAMAW as you can see nothing happens once they have your money, 3 years now and still nothing

#$%& 'em


Hi xxxxx
As discussed I am forwarding my previous “E” mails to give you some insight to my position, in the hope that I can at least get a reply to my questions.fficeffice" />>>
> >
Thanks>>
> >

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Mr. xxxxxxx
I have still not received a reply from you or any of your agents, I can understand that maybe your busy, but it is now more than eight weeks since my first attempt at E mail communication after realizing that nobody was going to return my phone calls and numerous messages. It now appears that the IAMAW does not return E mails either.>>

I have not once been contacted by a member of the IAMAW since I was laid off and filled my grievances almost THIRTY months ago. >>

I would like to know why not.>>

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Mrs. xxxx
I'm forwarding the previous E mails I sent. I have called xxxxxxxx @ xxxxxxxx and left messages numerous times over the past 6 months and have not had any reply, I have spoken to "xxxxx" @ xxxxxxxxx at least twice requesting information on the grievances I filled over two years ago which I have never been updated on, he was to get xxxxxxxl to update me and I'm still waiting. My coworker xxxxxxxx has had the same level of attention regarding these issues as I have.>>

>>

Please see can you get some answers for us>>

Thanks>>

xxxxxxxx


> >

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Mr. xxxxxxx
It is now almost a month since I sent this E mail to you, I think after paying 10 years of union dues I at least disserve the courtesy of a reply.................>>


> >

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Mr. xxxxxxxx >>
I was employed with xxxxxxxxx in xxxxxx Intl. for almost 10 years Feb ‘99 to July ‘08>>
During which time I was a member of the IAMAW.>>
I was “laid off” along with xxxxxxx out of a company of over 850 employees we were the only two people “laid off” this in my opinion was directly related to our activity in the union,our refusal to violate Customs regulations, and to turn a blind eye to aircraft defects. >>
xxxxxxx immediately subcontracted part of our jobs (pushing aircraft back and providing ground support) to xxxxxxx, (watched this out the window as I was told I had no job), and subsequently had the remaining two maintenance employees work overtime and or contracted xxxxxxx Jet to provide maintenance support in xxxxx and xxxxxxxx, they also use non union employees to provide maintenance support in xxx, and even fly in mechanics when necessary.>>
Since I was laid off I have not once been contacted by the union,any communication has been initiated by me (as this is) I have left numerous messages on xxxxxxx cell phone and have never received a reply.>>
I filed multiple grievances as did Mr.xxxxxx when we were “laid off” and have not been updated as to the status of them. I now understand that the IAMAW have signed another contract with xxxxxxxxx despite these outstanding grievances, which from my understanding of US labor law is a straight forward case, in fact it is the very sort of case unions came into being to prevent.>>
How the IAMAW can settle another contract with xxxxxxx when they have a history of violations and intimidation, so many contractual violations including the closure and subsequent ignoring of the cargo department, with no resolution to any of them is beyond my understanding. >>
Please help me to understand.>>
>>
>>
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[cegro27]

For better or worse, on many aspects, the Delta Pilots negotiate for the rest of the employees and often will lose out on certain contractual desires because the company must view any given demand through the prism of what it will cost to give to all the work groups a comparable gain if necessary. If you don't want a union, thats fine.....it's none of my business. But you are naive if you are walking around saying things like unions have no effect or don't benefit me in any way while assuming that events like those above are simply lucky coincidents.

Well since all of us non-union employees have the pilots to thank for all they've so graciously negotiated for "us", we should also thank them for us not having to pay all of those union dues every month. Now that you put it that way, we've got the best of both worlds...union benefits without union hassle...so why would any of else ever vote for a union...?

[Curtis Malone]

Well since all of us non-union employees have the pilots to thank for all they've so graciously negotiated for "us", we should also thank them for us not having to pay all of those union dues every month. Now that you put it that way, we've got the best of both worlds...union benefits without union hassle...so why would any of else ever vote for a union...?

Actually, your sentiments are echoed by many non-union pilots also. They too have over the years benefited from advances made by unionized pilot groups and they too feel that they can rip the benefits without paying the dues.

It's the age-old "why buy a cow?" debate.