BA 777 landing accident at LHR

[flyingspark]

BBC Radio 2 Friday.

A discussion was taking place about BA038. A guy phoned up and was amazed that no one had thought of the theory that a passenger activating his mobile (cell) phone had caused the engines to fail.
On another thought, could severe wake turbulence mess up the air flow enough to screw the engine thrust?? It doesn't look like that happened here but could it happen?

[nickappel]

How long?

How long do you think the plane will be in that spot?

[BA747-436]

"The delicate task of moving the aircraft to the engineering base is now underway led by BA engineering in conjunction with the AAIB. They are being assisted by the RAF and BAA. It is likely to take some time and will be dependent on the weather conditions. Once the aircraft has been moved work will commence to return the runway to full operation."

Source: Guarenteed but undisclosed.

[busfan]

FADEC: isn't it "one per engine" (would bring us back to a rare simultaneous failure)?

FMC: maybe, but this is a Boeing

Core lock due to multiple "dudes" being issued in the cockpit during approach?

I don't think BA hires "dudes" ala the NWA RJ...

[Dmmoore]

True - however if APU autostart happened (which was a suggested possibility based on the APU intake being open) would that not indicate that the engines were not at merely idle thrust?

It depends on what started the APU. You can't assume it auto started because the engines shut down. It may have but was it running because the crew started it prior to making the approach? Did it auto start because an engine driven generator tripped? You can't tell from the picture.

All of these will be known when the DFDR is read.

[Dmmoore]

BBC Radio 2 Friday.

A discussion was taking place about BA038. A guy phoned up and was amazed that no one had thought of the theory that a passenger activating his mobile (cell) phone had caused the engines to fail.
On another thought, could severe wake turbulence mess up the air flow enough to screw the engine thrust?? It doesn't look like that happened here but could it happen?

"Anything "COULD" happen!
Realistically, No. Turbulence strong enough to flame out the engines would cause other problems that would lead to structural failure first.

[Dmmoore]

How long do you think the plane will be in that spot?

Until the physical investigation involving the aircraft resting in that location (not the cause but the result of the event) is complete. Usually 2 or 3 days. Then removal will begin. If the aircraft is to be written off, the aircraft may be dismantled. If it is to be recovered, It will be lifted in one major piece onto transport dollies and moved to a repair site.

The write off / vs repair decision will be or has been made by the Airline and their insurance carrier.

[L1011]

AAIB preliminary report here






http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_ne...ial_report.cfm

[Willezurmacht]

I am still convinced that the coincidence of the engines stopping at that precise moment is an avionics/ software problem. Some tiny flaw that only happens when the conditions line up in a very specific manner.

[Vinco]

I thought I read earlier over on AD.com that an airport employee said that the engines were "screaming" as it came in for landing. Being familiar with the sound aircraft engines produce gives him some credibility. Is it possible that he came in two low/too slow to where even max power wasn't enough to bail him out?

[pelican98]

Originally Posted by Dmmoore

The write off / vs repair decision will be or has been made by the Airline and their insurance carrier.

If they opt to fix it, will pilots have a say in the process?
I also wonder if passengers would willingly board in if informed of the aircraft history, because of the jinx factor.
My guess is they are going to scrap it. salvage the good parts to use maintaining other 777s if there is such a program.
ps: my condolence to ad.com, I loved that site for its expertise.

[HalcyonDays]

If they opt to fix it, will pilots have a say in the process?
I also wonder if passengers would willingly board in if informed of the aircraft history, because of the jinx factor.
My guess is they are going to scrap it. salvage the good parts to use maintaining other 777s if there is such a program.
ps: my condolence to ad.com, I loved that site for its expertise.

The decision will have nothing to do with the pilots. It will be a business decision between the owner (in this case, the airline) and the insurers. It would certainly be valuable parted out. If it is declared a hull loss, I would expect it to raise comfortably in excess of $100m, since it is a young airframe (2001).

[Schorsch]

I am still convinced that the coincidence of the engines stopping at that precise moment is an avionics/ software problem. Some tiny flaw that only happens when the conditions line up in a very specific manner.

I disagree. The engine control systems are around for over 20 years now. The differences to previous RR engine models or previous Boeing models are limited, the basic software is rarely changed as it is certified and works. The circumstances were in no way specific. The aircraft is neither very young nor very new. It doesn't belong to some austere carrier. The B777 fleet has accumulated well above 1 million flight hours and most likely 100000 cycles/landings. If a technical problem within the software exists why should it surface exactly now? And why at a similar time on both engines?

The most striking thing is the failing of the engines at precisely the same moment. A fuel starvation (for example due to wrong pumping; fuel on board was enough) would have resulted in one engine failing first.

The theory of fuel contamination sounds somehow plausible, at least it would explain some issues. A double flame out is rather unlikely, if anything went into the engines (ash etc) the question is why no other aircraft was affected.

This remains a delicate issue. Should an uncommanded engine shut down have occured and if it is not attributable to a failure of either the pilots, the airline or the fuel, Boeing and Rolls Royce have a major problem, not to speak of the carriers that use the B777.

[sjwk]

I thought I read earlier over on AD.com that an airport employee said that the engines were "screaming" as it came in for landing.

I'd read similar reports - although I saw one report attribute that to someone on the ground and another one to a passenger. "Screaming" engines to me suggested they were doing something so maybe the sound was from something else? I also read something that said the plane dropped as soon as the undercarriage was lowered - would that just be because the drag lowered speed more, or could something associated with the undercarriage have damaged control cables or similar? Stowaways lighting campfires in the wheel-wells for instance?

Unfortunately I can't find the references to either of those, the BBC have an annoying habit of rewriting their articles with new findings, dropping the less newsworthy bits out rather than leave published articles alone and creating new ones..

Steve.

[JordanD]

Cell phone.