AA Flight 587

[Highkeas]

I recall a Concorde lost the upper portion of its vertical stabilizer in flight and landed safely.

[Dmmoore]

I recall a Concorde lost the upper portion of its vertical stabilizer in flight and landed safely.

It was the upper portion of the rudder.

[Louis Gonzalez]

Why do large airliners tend to flip upside down . . . ?

A question please: Why do large airliners tend to flip upside down when they lose all or parts of their tails in an accident? (1956 Crand Canyon Accident, TWA Connie, Aeromexico DC-9 mid-air in Cerritos, CA, and many more). This unfortunate scenario seems to happen with sad regularity in accidents of this category.

Does it have anything to to with the center of gravity of the remaining airframe?

I understand that if the horizontal stabilizer is gone, there's nothing left to counterbalance the normal "nose-down" tendency, but why do the aircraft often become inverted as well? I would think there's more weight on the lower parts of the airframe than the upper parts, especially on low-wing aircraft.

It's bad enough that you're falling uncontrollably nose down, but it must be even so much more horrifying to go down inverted.

I'm not sure of the attitude of Flight 587 in it's last few seconds, but any opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Verbal]

I think you should concentrate on not dropping flyballs when playing left field for the Arizona Diamondbacks, Luis.

[TaCA]

I think you should concentrate on not dropping flyballs when playing left field for the Arizona Diamondbacks, Luis.

haha, I think he's playing for the Marlins now, aren't you?

[Verbal]

I think he's playing for the Marlins now....

Concur.

[TaCA]

A question please: Why do large airliners tend to flip upside down when they lose all or parts of their tails in an accident? (1956 Crand Canyon Accident, TWA Connie, Aeromexico DC-9 mid-air in Cerritos, CA, and many more). This unfortunate scenario seems to happen with sad regularity in accidents of this category.

Can't leave out Alaska Air 261 just off of Point Mugu.

[Dmmoore]

A question please: Why do large airliners tend to flip upside down when they lose all or parts of their tails in an accident? (1956 Crand Canyon Accident, TWA Connie, Aeromexico DC-9 mid-air in Cerritos, CA, and many more). This unfortunate scenario seems to happen with sad regularity in accidents of this category.

Does it have anything to to with the center of gravity of the remaining airframe?

I understand that if the horizontal stabilizer is gone, there's nothing left to counterbalance the normal "nose-down" tendency, but why do the aircraft often become inverted as well? I would think there's more weight on the lower parts of the airframe than the upper parts, especially on low-wing aircraft.

It's bad enough that you're falling uncontrollably nose down, but it must be even so much more horrifying to go down inverted.

I'm not sure of the attitude of Flight 587 in it's last few seconds, but any opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Different aircraft respond differently to the loss if specific pieces of the aerodynamic control surfaces. Many aircraft have suffered a partial failure of some aerodynamic surface and were controllable. The loss of an entire stabilizer means the control and design stability over that axis is gone. Inverted is the position a DC-9 (Including all MD-80 series) becomes stable when the horizontal stabilizer departs the aircraft.

[Airbus_A320]

Can't leave out Alaska Air 261 just off of Point Mugu.

That one had the horizonal stabalizer trim travel past where it was supposed to causing the plane to dive uncontrollably. I don't think it actually came off.

[alanh]

The NTSB report says that the stabilizer went at least 15 degrees down, but doesn't indicate that it separated. The normal limit is 3.1 degrees.

[Louis Gonzalez]

I think you should concentrate on not dropping flyballs when playing left field for the Arizona Diamondbacks, Luis.

I wish I was that pro baseball player! Then I could afford to buy my own private jet! (wether I dropped the fly balls or not!)

Thanks for all the replies, guys

[Schorsch]

I'm not sure of the attitude of Flight 587 in it's last few seconds, but any opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

That is also important to remark: while JAL123 was somehow flying normally when it lost its tail, AA587 lost its VTP at close 20° sideslip angle and considerable yaw rate. The rupture was due to large bending loads due to sideslip and torsion loads when rudder was fully deflected in opoosite direction. Rudder retraction at full sideslip is what basically designs VTPs today.