Air France plane missing?

[HalcyonDays]

I too very much doubt there were any messages sent by passengers.....

Indeed, some media and people are very gullible. Some may recall there was the case of supposed messages being sent out by passengers on the Helios 737, but in the end this was just someone making it all up on the ground (and I think was prosecuted....).

[AJ]

If this system is in fact not designed to transmit position information, would it be safe to suggest that future systems are provided with such capability?

Automatic dependent surveillance has been around for quite a few years and tracks aircraft beyond the coverage of radar. Have a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADS-B

[Alessandro]

The next legs the aircraft was to fly would most likely just be substituted with other aircraft. This is the same as if an aircraft breaks down at the airport.

An aircraft type would not generally be grounded unless there is clear evidence that there is a specific problem with the aircraft type, in the case of the A330, i don't know of any systematic problem with the type. The manufacturers have a pretty good idea od the possible failure risks of their aircraft, so would be the best people to speculate if there was a risk to other aircraft after a particular event.

I too very much doubt there were any messages sent by passengers, they would most likely me unaware of their fate, unless the aircraft was moveing violently. Sure people will be scare in heavy turbulence.

I am cautious of any high altitude break up of the the aircraft as this will create a very wide and vast debris field.

The higher the altitude of an inflight break up the bigger the debris field and the easier it is to find as there will be a lot of debris floating on the waters surface. This is because the aircraft will continue to disintegrate as it falls and the components will scatter and float down to the sea making a field perhaps many miles wide.

A fully intact aircraft crashing into the sea will have a very small debris field of perhaps a few hundred meters, depending of angle and speed of impact, and will be very hard to find. Most likly a few floating items, seat cusions etc and a fuel slick.

Remember the Indonesian 737 a few years ago, it took weeks to find and eventually a few debris washed up to an island shore.

AdamAir and it was january 2007.

[Theoddkiwi]

There is probably no reason why ACARs could not be used to report back position information, perhaps they could have it begin a transmission with current position.

But ACARs is not used for accident analysis, but just a useful tool for the company to be aware of technical defects so they can prepare before the aircraft arrives, amonst many other things.

This maybe a first in terms of ACARS providing the first hints of why an aircraft has crashed.

I believe there has been concepts of FDR and CVR data being transmitted from the aircraft in real time and recorded elseware, so there would be no need to spend so much time trying to find the recorders after an accident. But imagine how much data would be transmitted.

[eTang]

Belgian newspaper 'de morgen' reports that a french cargo ship found wreckage of the Senegal coast, approx. in the same area where a TAM plane crew reported 'flames' sightings on the water yesterday.

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/990/Buitenland/article/detail/872801/2009/06/02/Vrachtschip-vindt-brokstukken-waar-vliegtuig-neerstortte.dhtml

The belgian site quotes not specified brazilian media for this information.

.

[seahawk]

The report from Aviation Herald gives some possible interesting data about the information sent from the plane :

http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1&opt=0

Interestingly they see some similarities to the unexpected pitch-up from the Qantas A330.

Here the document for A330/340 by EASA : http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2009-0012-E

[AVION1]

"aircraft are supposed to survive lighting strike"
I have seen this in several places in this forum and other aviation related forums...the truth is, I have seen 'holes" in the skin of different aircraft which have survived lighting..!!, one day we got a Falcon 50 with a 2 inches in diameter hole in the rudder, in another incident we received another aircraft, a Boeing 727 with another hole near the wing tip, also from a lighting strike.

[James Bond]

Just saw this on Twitter via @BreakingNews

AIR FRANCE FLIGHT 447 -- BAF says fuel, debris, were found 800 km from Fernando de Noronha, near Sao Pedro and Sao Paulo Islands.
4 minutes ago from web

AIR FRANCE FLIGHT 447 -- A seat was seen floating 720 kilometers of Fernando de Noronha. Still no confirmation that is from the Airbus.
36 minutes ago from web

[Theoddkiwi]

"aircraft are supposed to survive lighting strike"
I have seen this in several places in this forum and other aviation related forums...the truth is, I have seen 'holes" in the skin of different aircraft which have survived lighting..!!, one day we got a Falcon 50 with a 2 inches in diameter hole in the rudder, in another incident we received another aircraft, a Boeing 727 with another hole near the wing tip, also from a lighting strike.

Yes but like anything electrical, it needs a path and will follow the path of least resistance. In terms of aircraft there will be a main entry point, often identified by a blackened area of paint. The path which can often be followed down the fuselage indicated by burnt rivet heads. The an exit point which is where most of the obvious physical damage is.

The exit point is where you would most likely find holes, blown off static wicks, or the tips of the Rudder, Stab, wing tip or engine cowl. Holes in these components won't make a plane crash.

This is where electical bonding is important, to allow a low resistance path for Lightening or static charge to move and be safely discharged through the static wicks.

[xspeedy]

Heard on the local CBS morning news that a pilot from what I think was a KLM flight with the same/similar route noticed flashes of orange light coming from the ocean surface below.

I'm surprised with all the safety and tech onboard an a/c, there isn't something that transmits position/tracking info during an apparent emergency. Perhaps a distress button on the instrument panel or unusual control inputs/flight behavior/alarms can start the tracking/transmission of position data.

[dr_cfii]

Which is totally impossible as there's no coverage for cell phone in this area.
Even over the ground you have no cell phone reception at above a certain altitude (about 10000ft) so imagine over the ocean...

1) the 10000 ft no coverage statement is not correct. Maybe in the USA, but South America, especially Brazil is ahead of us in that respect and my colleagues have been designing Air Cell Communication networks in Brazil last 4 years. I assume the statement above is your assumption, not something you read about.

2) you can text even without a cell coverage, does not mean it will go anywhere... Especially those poor people that were probably going through hell at the moment

3) If they were close to any inhabited islands, there may have been some kind of coverage...

[Carl E. Hackert]

According to

http://www.france24.com/en/20090602-air-france-crash-brazil-airbus-a330-rio-searching-survivors-accident

the timeline was as follows (Paris local time):

03:30, Monday, June 1: Last radio contact between plane and Brazilian traffic control
04:00, Monday, June 1: AF 447 enters a zone of heavy turbulence
04:15, Monday, June 1: Plane sends out an automatic message signalling a fault in the aircraft

At 03:30, would the pilots have communicated to ATC that they foresee entering the turbulence half an hour later? What communication conveyed entry into turbulence at 04:00, if no ATC comms is indicated at that time?

Maybe entry into turbulence could (also) be derived from the behaviour of specific ACARS parameters (i.e. those related to aerodynamics)? Assuming that such data was programmed to be downlinked.

Curious as to turbulence and storm reports of other aircraft that would have passed in the area before and after.

There's always the possibility that turbulence contributed to an electrical fire that would have gone undetected and/or was unable to be extinguished, as what happened in 2002 to an A-330 while still on the ground - entertainment system. The story below indicates a causal link to the Swiss Air fire and crash.


Plane fires linked to video systems

By Larry Pynn
The Calgary Herald

Thursday, March 27, 2003

A video-entertainment system caught fire aboard an Air Canada Airbus passenger jet parked at Vancouver International Airport last year, drawing a frightening parallel to a Swissair disaster off Nova Scotia that killed all 229 people on board in 1998.

The Vancouver fire, which occurred 40 minutes before passengers were set to board, has spurred a series of safety directives related to the replacement of faulty components and the installation of special switches to cut electrical power to entertainment systems.

The in-charge flight attendant aboard the Airbus A330-300 on Jan. 17, 2002, shut off the power switch to the forward-galley entertainment system at the first sign of trouble.

But two internal six-volt batteries continued to power the system while completing a systematic shutdown, giving new life to the smouldering fire.[/B][/B]

Details of the fire are contained in a federal transportation safety board report concluded in January, but seen for the first time this week.

"It powers itself for two minutes even after it's shut down," said regional safety board manager Bill Yearwood. "That's the concern. The crew wasn't aware of the intricacies of the system."

Fortunately, the Vancouver incident occurred on the ground and the flight attendant managed to put out the blaze using a halon fire extinguisher.

However, the circumstances are hauntingly reminiscent of the crash of a Swissair MD-11 aircraft off Peggy's Cove. A federal report being released today into that crash is expected to point to a fire in the wiring of the entertainment system as a possible cause.

"There are a lot of concerns about flight entertainment systems," said Yearwood. "The issue is that these systems may not be as stringently scrutinized as normal aircraft components."

The Passport entertainment system that caught fire aboard the Airbus in Vancouver had been repaired by manufacturer Rockwell Collins Inc. of Pomona, Calif., three times over the preceding three months.

The U-18 component is used in 539 processing boards in Passport systems aboard 27 aircraft worldwide.

As a direct result of the Airbus fire, Rockwell Collins issued a number of service bulletins requiring airlines to replace defective U-18 components built before July 2000.

Airbus is also issuing its own service bulletins ordering the installation of a main power switch for all Passport systems aboard A330 and A340 aircraft.

Air Canada is complying with the bulletins, said the safety board report.

[Foxtrot]

Re:

Heard on the local CBS morning news that a pilot from what I think was a KLM flight with the same/similar route noticed flashes of orange light coming from the ocean surface below.

The pilots of a TAM aircraft that was headed to Rio de Janeiro spotted fires in the Atlantic roughly along the path of the AF jet.

Some debris has been found by Brazilian Air Force pilots:

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090602/...a/brazil_plane

As I understand it, it was at FL 350 and if so, that's well below the height of most towering thunderstorms, which can go up to 50,000 feet in height or even more, especially in a tropical airmass like in the region in consideration. The bright, white cloud tops seen in the satellite imagery are a good indication that those storms were quite tall. They can also have hail, and hail has brought down aircraft before. Anyway, that's just an observation, guess we'll find out what weather conditions there were in detail when this happened.

[IntheShade]

According to

http://www.france24.com/en/20090602-air-france-crash-brazil-airbus-a330-rio-searching-survivors-accident

the timeline was as follows (Paris local time):

03:30, Monday, June 1: Last radio contact between plane and Brazilian traffic control
04:00, Monday, June 1: AF 447 enters a zone of heavy turbulence
04:15, Monday, June 1: Plane sends out an automatic message signalling a fault in the aircraft

At 03:30, would the pilots have communicated to ATC that they foresee entering the turbulence half an hour later? What communication conveyed entry into turbulence at 04:00, if no ATC comms is indicated at that time?

Maybe entry into turbulence could (also) be derived from the behaviour of specific ACARS parameters (i.e. those related to aerodynamics)? Assuming that such data was programmed to be downlinked.

Isn't that the way it always is when dealing with Airbus accidents?

Lost black boxes, pilot upset training programs, reports of heavy turbulence that don't make sense.

Of course later when no one is observing you get revamped flight laws, AD on tailfin attachement fins, and who knows what else.

[Spad13]

Isn't that the way it always is when dealing with Airbus accidents?

Lost black boxes, pilot upset training programs, reports of heavy turbulence that don't make sense.

Of course later when no one is observing you get revamped flight laws, AD on tailfin attachement fins, and who knows what else.

Indeed.