P-51 Crashes at Reno Air Races, Spectator Casualties

[Fear_of_Flying]

Not sure what you mean by justifiable? If there was no demand for these shows, then why would the organizers bother putting up the show? I would think that there are enough people that would choose to attend knowing something like this CAN happen.

In any case, I'm pretty sure the odds that you die at an airshow is much smaller than dying in a automobile crash.

This accident will probably mean new rules for the aircrafts competing in these events (the FAA is involved in the planning of this race), as well as moving spectator areas further away.

(My bold)

Are you suggesting that the profits brought in by organizers due to public demand - or perhaps acquiescence, since there's no real demand from what I can tell independent of what is offered - justifies the risk of life that these airshows entail?

There is demand for cocaine - does that make its sale ethical?

There is a demand for dogs to put up in dog fights, and plenty of money to be made, but that is an indictable offense. And those are animals we're talking about, not people.

If the pilot knew that his career would end in the deaths of not only himself, but innocent bystanders, and was given the choice between giving up his lifelong pursuit of flying for those lives, I suspect he would never have stepped foot in a cockpit because this sounds like a man of integrity, who would have recognized that his "need for speed" was not worth the price.

Does the average person attending an airshow truly recognize the danger? I sure wouldn't. What if 40 people had been wiped out, and let's say 7 of those were young kids - did they make that determination that their fun day at the airshow included an implicit disclaimer that they were willing to forfeit their lives for the continued entertainment of "unlimited" races?

This accident was foreseeable, and therefore avoidable. Allowing these races has been a huge gaff on the part of the FAA, which is seemingly decades behind car racing in its ability to safeguard the spectators.

It doesn't matter how small your chances are of dying as a spectator. If you buy a prescription to clear your acne, and it gives you liver cancer, it doesn't matter how few people this happened to - the pharmaceutical company is liable. My chances of dying from a heart attack are far greater than my chances of being poisoned - should I therefore add some arsenic to my bacon and eggs?

This accident should indefinitely suspend airshows in my opinion, not just mean "new rules". As far as I can tell, there are no rules.

[Thurian]

I know it's the immediate aftermath, but I'll be the first here to ask how justifiable a risk these airshows really are?

Oh please!!! on the basis of that ill thought out comment, let us ban ALL forms of live entertainment in case a spectator gets injured by tripping over a stand at a car show or falling down a step at a football game etc.
Much safer if we all just stay at home and watch "virtual" entertainment on the tv.

[sjwk]

Already on YouTube

Already pulled from YouTube

[Fear_of_Flying]

Already pulled from YouTube

Still all over Youtube and many news websites.

[Fear_of_Flying]

Oh please!!! on the basis of that ill thought out comment, let us ban ALL forms of live entertainment in case a spectator gets injured by tripping over a stand at a car show or falling down a step at a football game etc.
Much safer if we all just stay at home and watch "virtual" entertainment on the tv.

So you would suggest that ALL forms of live entertainment carry an equal inherent risk? I don't think so. Falling down a step at a football game has nothing to do with being at a football game. Being injured in a football riot, however, does (assuming here you mean soccer). Is the latter an acceptable risk you should be willing to take when you go to a football game, or should steps be taken to prevent such riots?

In hockey, there is an inherent risk of being hit by a puck. The leagues addressed that problem by putting up screens to prevent the most likely occurrences of high speed pucks going into the crowd along the end boards. (And this was after the first spectator death in 85 years caused by a puck, a 13-year-old girl in 2002).

In car racing, the most analogous example, many measures have been taken over the years to protect fans from cars and especially flying debris.

At airshows, on the other hand, WWII vintage aircraft, often with home-made modifications to allow them performance they were not originally designed for, are allowed to strafe the spectators at hundreds of miles an hour, and they crash on a regular basis.

Of course, if you were to stay at home and watch TV, you better not live too close to the airport when an airshow is taking place because there seems to be no telling where the next plane will come down.

[Highkeas]

Looks like a piece is missing from the horizontal tail.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-201_162-10009462.html

I can't see the pilot in pic number 3

[guamainiac]

Good eye. In all of the Google Images .. pics of the ac, the pilot is clearly visible.

Slumped forward? Black out perhaps or med issue?

Missing trim tab on the left horizontal ??

[AVION1]

Any explanations on why it didn't explode as a fire ball?...avgas is very explosive. I wonder if the pilot turned the master switch off, in order to prevent more casualties.

[Fear_of_Flying]

Some interesting history from a site featuring the Galloping Ghost (http://www2.leewardairranch.com/racing/history/cleveland):

Raymond and Beville brought a smooth running Ghost to Cleveland in 1949. The Merlin engine was easily delivering 2200 horsepower, thanks to an improved water injection system and exotic SOHIO fuel. Beville qualified fourth and went on to finish fourth in both the SOHIO and Thompson Trophy races. Sadly, the Ghost's success was marred by the loss of race pilot Bill Odom during the Thompson event.

Bill Odom made a name for himself in the late 1940s by setting long distance speed records. In 1947 he established a new record for solo flying around the world in 73 hours and 5 minutes. Two years later he was hired by Jackie Cochran to fly a highly modified Mustang known as the "Beguine." Odom had little to no real racing experience and he sadly lost control of his Mustang during the Thompson Trophy Race and crashed into a house, killing a young woman and her infant child. Steve Beville watched the entire scene from the air as it developed.

"Odom pulled up alongside of me shortly after we started the second lap of the race," recalled Beville. "He looked over at me as if asking me to let him pass. He then dropped down and passed me from below as we approached pylon two. Coming out of the turn it appeared he lined up on pylon four instead of three. His airplane then rolled to the right and went down. I saw smoke coming from the ground on the next lap." Odom's accident outraged the public and eventually influenced the decision to cancel the National Air Races in Cleveland.

The article also discusses some of the early modifications to the Galloping Ghost (which continued through the following decades, including shortening the entire airframe, in an effort to improve performance).

[Fear_of_Flying]

Interesting how, in 1949, when the world was newly desensitized to violent death, when society was not obsessed with safety, when liability lawsuits were not yet commonplace, that air racing accident still caused public outrage to the extent that the Cleveland races were cancelled.

Now, in 2011, many years and many accidents later, just raising the question of whether or not the risk of these races is justified is an "ill thought out comment". I guess life has really become cheap. They would have died anyway, sooner or later.

[B757300]

Now at 9 fatalities, 56 injured

[AVIATIONFASCINATION]

rules

Arent there already rules in the USA stating that race officials must never setup a "track" to fly towards the spectators?

Im not saying this one did, it looks like he lost control and the plane went in whatever direction it wanted to.

But, i heard there were rules that say all races must direct planes away from stands/spectators.

example, if racing/flying in a 4 turn track (think nascar), the turns must never point the plane in direction of the people. (in case of malfunction) unless they are a stated distance away from the stands.

thats what i heard.

[Fear_of_Flying]

Now at 9 fatalities, 56 injured

No worries, they could have just as easily died at a badminton tournament. By the way, there was another crash today at an airshow in West Virgina. Not many details yet. Picture attached. I hope everyone's ok.

[guamainiac]

That was a T-28 Korean vintage 2 seat trainer.

Generally, the "energy" and flight path is to be directed away from spectators at an air show.

Lets ban them Fear .... so I can slit my wrists of boredom.

Does anyone force you to go to Bridgehampton, Lime Rock, or any race? If you don't know that unless you are in the top bleachers you can be hit ... nuff said? Those are auto tracks, at an air show, schizz happens.

[Fear_of_Flying]

That was a T-28 Korean vintage 2 seat trainer.

Generally, the "energy" and flight path is to be directed away from spectators at an air show.

Lets ban them Fear .... so I can slit my wrists of boredom.

Does anyone force you to go to Bridgehampton, Lime Rock, or any race? If you don't know that unless you are in the top bleachers you can be hit ... nuff said? Those are auto tracks, at an air show, schizz happens.

Does anyone force you to read my comments? I thought this was an aviation safety forum, but seeing as I'm the only one who seems to think this is a safety issue and not just a shitty break for those people who were obliterated, I'm happy to let it go.