dubya duz it

[Katamarino]

No, I think you are the naive fool.
Either you choose to ignore the fact that Saddam ruled his country by fear or you're just incredibly stupid. Do you think people were allowed to protest before we came in? No, they would have all been killed.



And you're point is? You say this and then completely fail to mention how its relevant. I'll make the leap for you, and point out that whoever the leader of the country is this doesnt mean that the whole country is going to love you when you invade it. Its common sense. Are you trying to say that the protests are just for the hell of it, because they can?

The Iraqi's still think Saddam is alive (and he may be) and they think he is gonna make a comeback and rule again, so some are still fighting for a pointless cause because they think if they don't, Saddam will kill them.

I think the Iraqis should be given a little more credit. Is it not fairly apparent that the US is there to stay, which could indeed be half the problem?

Show me where I said 100% of the Iraqi's love the US?

Rob Wrote...

Yet all over the TV screens were Iraqi's hugging and kissing US troops, and every letter we got from my brother who was in Iraq mentioned something about people offering food, people giving them money, people cheering as they drove by, etc.

So its not saying 100%, but i didnt say that either, so its a moot point.



So are you saying that CNN might have put the people up to chanting stuff like "Go Bush! Go USA!" so they could have some good video?
Oh and for the record I have seen many anti-US demonstrations (on TV) in Iraq, then again I've also seen many pro-US demonstrations in Iraq.

I'll ignore your rather bitchy first comment, because you know full well thats not what i meant. So, if you've seen many demonsrations of both, i guess every negative point just failed to slip into your first, well-balanced post...?

Of course they want their country back but do you think if we left tomorrow they could rebuild without our help?

Not now that you've blown it to bits

And I heard many mentions of the coalition forces who were still alive.

Despite what you might think, you don't know everything. I'm not saying I do either, but I find it odd when people like yourself know what the Iraqi's want and need, and know sthe ecrets about Saddam, Osama and WMD's.. Maybe you should work as an intelligence official?

Bitchy little boy, bitchy

[zak]

Now, speaking with my Australia hat on, I find it particularly rude that the U.S. Ambassador to Australia, Tom Scheiffer, a former baseball team owner and friend of GW is constantly involving himself in Australian politics.

Well there's them politicians for ya :P I think you guys don't understand that I differentiate between politics and diplomatics and regular Joe Shmoes.
I have NO problem with people from other countries critisizing the U.S. foreign policy in a balanced and thoughtfull way. But zak here thinks he lives in the U.S. He doesn't. He doesnt know whats going on here, what we're talking about, and what we get in the news. You know CNN and FOX aren't the ONLY news sources in all America. Personally, I prefer the paper to the network news channels, because I like to read. There are debates on CSPAN all the time with senators being interviewed and talks ranging on a variety of issues and topics. I feel like many Europeans think the U.S. is some communist dictatorship where nobody knows what the heck is going on. We have plenty of debate and Bush gets plenty of critics even within our country. There is currently a big debate on why the CIA allowed Bush to use erroneous information in his state of the Union address.
I won't take sides on that issue, but you guys (accross the pond) have to understand that not everyone in this country loves Bush, and we don't need any help figuring out if hes a good or bad president. Having people like zak go on and on about our politics like he knows better than us is just plain anoying.
Listen, I'm not to keen on this whole war in Iraq, I have my doubts about its usefullness and cause, but I don't need some nobody from another country telling ME what I should think.

See, even I can find something nice to say about him.

I wish there were more people like you. Personally I don't think I would have voted for him, but you have to give him credit for something.

-Clovis

slow your roll there boi. i dont even know where to start with your "assumptions" but lets see, i just stated some facts regarding usa's fiscal situation and told my u.s. american friends that i feel with them and that i hope that they correct their error. i dont know how you can relate to the point that i ANYWHERE implied that i "thinks he lives in the USA". i am glad i do not i might add. nowhere i mentioned fox or cnn or whatever media yet you bring it up in your argumentation.
its interesting that just pointing out some known official figures opens pandoras box on the other end again. must be because some ppl actually realize whats going on but dont want to admit it and fight it on every occasion even tho it aint on the topic. but since this discussion isnt about the economically wrong bush adminstration anymore since you guys dont like facts that you cant oppose with right winged populism, i'll let myself get dragged in the discussion.
i will fight oppose and appaude any mischief on the united corporate plutocracy of north america until they stop fiddling with other countries in every aspect possible yet start whining and try to threaten and bully other countries as soon as anyone raises any doubt. the reasons are the following so you cant call me something like unreasonable hater:
- pollution is a global issue. the ucpna constantly ignores this for profits sake
- the ucpna constantly gets involved in countless other countries for, as always, a profit increase. intices civil wars and overthrows democratically elected governments(septemper 11(ironically) 1972 in chile for example).
- the ucpna constantly undermines human rights in a) first and foremost their own country b) everywhere where the local economy is too weak to oppose exploitation
- the ucpna agressively pursues the politicial success of parties and entities it sees fit in other countries, usually by any mens necessary, and calls it liberation in the same sentence
- the ucpna applies double standarts everywhere. other countries are to be searched and inspected by weapons inspectors(rightfully so i might add) but itself, even tho its bound to the same rules, denies entry to any weapon of mass destruction inspections under the "we dont bomb countries for no reason" credo even tho the ucpna is the only country apart from some minor dictators who constantly bombs countries for no reason(if you call pursue of profit a reason the ucpna has a reason of course)
- a big part of the problem is that, for european standarts, the slaves(also known as citizens of the usa) of the ucpna are those that suffer most from it, but fail to realize it. and all of a sudden now that the ucpna try to apply this media controlled slavery of fear to the rest of the world population those who cant oppose peacefully and economically oppose violently. that leads to the impression that the people of the rest of the world dont like the cititzens of the usa. that is not the case. they just dislike the ucpna.

[herpa2003]

Now, speaking with my Australia hat on, I find it particularly rude that the U.S. Ambassador to Australia, Tom Scheiffer, a former baseball team owner and friend of GW is constantly involving himself in Australian politics.

Well there's them politicians for ya :P I think you guys don't understand that I differentiate between politics and diplomatics and regular Joe Shmoes.
I have NO problem with people from other countries critisizing the U.S. foreign policy in a balanced and thoughtfull way. But zak here thinks he lives in the U.S. He doesn't. He doesnt know whats going on here, what we're talking about, and what we get in the news. You know CNN and FOX aren't the ONLY news sources in all America. Personally, I prefer the paper to the network news channels, because I like to read. There are debates on CSPAN all the time with senators being interviewed and talks ranging on a variety of issues and topics. I feel like many Europeans think the U.S. is some communist dictatorship where nobody knows what the heck is going on. We have plenty of debate and Bush gets plenty of critics even within our country. There is currently a big debate on why the CIA allowed Bush to use erroneous information in his state of the Union address.
I won't take sides on that issue, but you guys (accross the pond) have to understand that not everyone in this country loves Bush, and we don't need any help figuring out if hes a good or bad president. Having people like zak go on and on about our politics like he knows better than us is just plain anoying.
Listen, I'm not to keen on this whole war in Iraq, I have my doubts about its usefullness and cause, but I don't need some nobody from another country telling ME what I should think.

See, even I can find something nice to say about him.

I wish there were more people like you. Personally I don't think I would have voted for him, but you have to give him credit for something.

-Clovis

slow your roll there boi. i dont even know where to start with your "assumptions" but lets see, i just stated some facts regarding usa's fiscal situation and told my u.s. american friends that i feel with them and that i hope that they correct their error. i dont know how you can relate to the point that i ANYWHERE implied that i "thinks he lives in the USA". i am glad i do not i might add. nowhere i mentioned fox or cnn or whatever media yet you bring it up in your argumentation.
its interesting that just pointing out some known official figures opens pandoras box on the other end again. must be because some ppl actually realize whats going on but dont want to admit it and fight it on every occasion even tho it aint on the topic. but since this discussion isnt about the economically wrong bush adminstration anymore since you guys dont like facts that you cant oppose with right winged populism, i'll let myself get dragged in the discussion.
i will fight oppose and appaude any mischief on the united corporate plutocracy of north america until they stop fiddling with other countries in every aspect possible yet start whining and try to threaten and bully other countries as soon as anyone raises any doubt. the reasons are the following so you cant call me something like unreasonable hater:
- pollution is a global issue. the ucpna constantly ignores this for profits sake
- the ucpna constantly gets involved in countless other countries for, as always, a profit increase. intices civil wars and overthrows democratically elected governments(septemper 11(ironically) 1972 in chile for example).
- the ucpna constantly undermines human rights in a) first and foremost their own country b) everywhere where the local economy is too weak to oppose exploitation
- the ucpna agressively pursues the politicial success of parties and entities it sees fit in other countries, usually by any mens necessary, and calls it liberation in the same sentence
- the ucpna applies double standarts everywhere. other countries are to be searched and inspected by weapons inspectors(rightfully so i might add) but itself, even tho its bound to the same rules, denies entry to any weapon of mass destruction inspections under the "we dont bomb countries for no reason" credo even tho the ucpna is the only country apart from some minor dictators who constantly bombs countries for no reason(if you call pursue of profit a reason the ucpna has a reason of course)
- a big part of the problem is that, for european standarts, the slaves(also known as citizens of the usa) of the ucpna are those that suffer most from it, but fail to realize it. and all of a sudden now that the ucpna try to apply this media controlled slavery of fear to the rest of the world population those who cant oppose peacefully and economically oppose violently. that leads to the impression that the people of the rest of the world dont like the cititzens of the usa. that is not the case. they just dislike the ucpna.

Oh yeah, don't you see the Americans on TV in chains wailing, "help us, help us?" We are not slaves, and you don't have a lot of room to talk, considering some European countries are keen on exterminating 12 million people as well as starting 2 world wars. MAybe the "slaves" of the EU need some help from the USA.

[herpa2003]

One more thing- we bailed your asses out twice, you should be thanking us instead of calling us slaves and insulting our country. I don't know what country you are from, so I can't be more specific...

[Delta727-232]

O.k. first of all something that has demoralized this debate to a certain extent: I can't stand it when people tell other people to get their noses out of their/our business just because they aren't from our country. Everyone has the right to formulate an opinion about what's going on here, and they are allowed to voice it. However, in the end, the American people are the ones with the true voice-we are the ones who vote. I know some highly educated people who do not live within the US, or hold a US citizenship, that can tell you more than the average American can about our politics and goings' on. I was recently away in Europe, but any news stand that I walked up to, sure enough there was a New York Times and a USA today. Within those two sources-there was a wealth of information. I kept myself updated everyday on what was going on back home.

That being said, I'd just like to briefly touch on a few topics. His "tax reductions" (I want to use that term loosely) have not stimulated the economy. I know that when my family got ours, it was put into a savings account and did not recirculate back into the mainstream economy. On my street alone, a good portion of other people did this. I think that this speaks for a good majority of Americans. There was a Gallup poll a few months ago asking what people did/planned on doing with their tax refunds. The results of that poll reinforces what I just stated above (by the way, I've been looking around on the internet for that poll. I'm sure someone on here remembers it) A sour economy, mixed with heavily increased spending and tax cuts is what caused this deficit. Now we want to spend more money on Africa, and meddle with Liberia (even though our presence there will pacify war-goers and bring some level of stability there). I think we've given enough to Africa for a while. We give them billions of dollars per year (not necessarily through Federal funding, but through private organizations as well). Not to seem greedy, but America has internal problems that they could allocate that money to, to help fix. Down the road, I'd like to see free health care for every American. It worked in Canada, it's worked elsewhere. It can work here. HMO's are awful, and they need to go.

A lot of fingers have been pointed at the Bush Administration for our current economic situation. Any half-wit that has taken a basic course in economics will find that our economy is cyclical. It basically breaks down into 4 years of recession, per 10 years of growth. Our economy started to slip just as Clinton was finishing his last year, and Bush was stuck with 4 years of yellow shit storms (Alan Greenspan needs to go too speaking of the economy). So lets see...4 years...1999-2003/4. Yay! We'll be coming into 10 years of growth here shortly. I did a presentation for this once, and I can trace this economic trend back to 1952, with a general variance of .5 to 1.7 years. So it's pretty accurate.

That being said, Bush has done some good for our country, and he's done some things that weren't too...smart. The Administration has a lot of factors at play that they are trying to deal with. The whole Africa thing is to try to gain respect back from countries where we lost some (or a whole lot in some cases). Our country needs to rebuild it's reputation with certain countries, and get things moving smoothly again.

Oh, and I want to strike one more string on the harp here. We have got to end US involvement in Israel. Nothing is EVER going to get solved over there as long as we are giving the Israeli's funding, as well as military support by the way of tanks, munitions...all of that other great stuff. What's great is that this whole mess was caused by the British (and the Zionists whom the British had promised a homeland) ith the Balfour Declaration. The British had their own affairs to attend to, and that left the US, the faithful British sidekicks in there alone trying to get a homeland for these people. You want the short version of the results: It went over like a lead balloon. But as long as the US hands it support to Israel, the Palestinians and other people from West Asia aren't going to be happy. That is where the problem lies. Nobody is going to be truly happy over there anyways...but we can sure as hell try.

[Aeronautics]

Oh yeah, don't you see the Americans on TV in chains wailing, "help us, help us?" We are not slaves, and you don't have a lot of room to talk, considering some European countries are keen on exterminating 12 million people as well as starting 2 world wars. MAybe the "slaves" of the EU need some help from the USA.

Check your history.

[JeffinDEN]

ZAK, we're glad you don't live here either!

[ATLcenter]

Why the hell is it America's problem if country X has a terrible leader? AS long as it doesn't impact us directly, it is no problem. I agree that Saddam was a horrible leader an dhe should never ahve been in power, but there were better ways to solve this thing.

I understand America's dilemna: We are the richest country, so we must protect the world, but at the same time, there are people who tell us to keep our nose out of things. That's human nature. You can't please everyone. I am EXTREMELY happy that GEorge W. BUsh got Saddam outta "office", but I wish it were done in a better way. Also, he handled 9/11 much better than I expected.

And this proves that there are two things that should never be discussed (pardon the cliche): politics and religion.

[Delta727-232]

Actually, America is far from being the world's richest country as our GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects. Don't have the highest per capita GNP either.

[ATLcenter]

Actually, America is far from being the world's richest country as our GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita reflects. Don't have the highest per capita GNP either.

Not rich in just monetary terms. I have been told that the US military is the most comprehnsive and powerful in the world. I also know that America is very-well to do when you compare it to others. Even if Joe Schmoe isn't rich, America is on the richer side. The country is one of the most sucessful in my eyes atleast.

[Airigami]

Let me ask you this, why is it such a sin to support a leader?

Simple. It isn't. But what annoys the hell out of me is that when somebody attcks the President, they are called 'unpatriotic' or 'un-American' without actually addressing the complaint against that leader. If we didn't support our leaders to an extent, then we would have anarchy. But that is just it - to an extent. Just because someone is our Commander-in-Chief, it does not give them free licence to do as they please, without criticism, just because they were elected to that position.

Oh, wait... did I say elected?

Oh, and Aeronautics, well said. Three words and a great point.

[Delta727-232]

I wont deny that my country is not powerful and successful, but what you stated above has a few shortcomings. And what does classify a country to be the richest in the world? By my books, it's the per capita GDP. Get a nice average sum.

[Airigami]

I find it odd when people like yourself know what the Iraqi's want and need, and know sthe ecrets about Saddam, Osama and WMD's

And you called me a hypocrite. Ha!

Look mate, no one knows what the Iraqis really need right now. And yes, the Bush administration is on that list. I think more than 3 hours of electricity per day might be one of those things that they need, though. Maybe we shouldn't have destroyed their power plants and water treatment facilities. Oh, well. Too late now.

Also, who DOES know the secrets about Saddam, Osama and WMDs? You? MI6 thought they knew but they screwed up. And Bush listened to MI6, and not the CIA. Maybe because a new Bond film was out at the time. Who knows? Johnny English would be a better representation for MI6 right now, though. I bet you're one of those people who thinks that Saddam was behind 9/11. You are aren't you. Come on, come clean.

As far as I recall, Katamarino has never professed to be the way, the light and truth. She is not all-knowing. She is not the oracle. But nor am I. Nor is Bush. And definitely, nor are you, mate.

[Airigami]

So are you saying that CNN might have put the people up to chanting stuff like "Go Bush! Go USA!" so they could have some good video?
Oh and for the record I have seen many anti-US demonstrations (on TV) in Iraq, then again I've also seen many pro-US demonstrations in Iraq.

Ah, another gem. Ok, now I will agree with you that many of the pro-US demonstrations are legit. Yes, there are many Iraqis who are bending over backwards to say how much they love us.

But why?

Now, imagine you are an Iraqi. You have just endured decades of brutal dictatorship (incidentally like the majority of the world, but that's another issue). Indeed, it may be the only type of government you've ever known. As an aside, a large problem US diplomats are having in helping set up the Loya Jirga in Afghanistan is that many Afghans still don't understand the concept of democracy. In the same way, many Iraqis don't understand the concept of dissent. It is hard for many of us comfortable middle class westerners to understand this, but it is true. Many Iraqis feel they are obliged to kiss the feet of our soldiers. They fear that if they show dissent, they may meet a fate from US soldiers that would have met them in the time of Saddam.

So just because there are legitimate pro-US demonstrations in Iraq, it does not mean they really want us there.

[herpa2003]

Oh yeah, don't you see the Americans on TV in chains wailing, "help us, help us?" We are not slaves, and you don't have a lot of room to talk, considering some European countries are keen on exterminating 12 million people as well as starting 2 world wars. MAybe the "slaves" of the EU need some help from the USA.

Check your history.

If you are telling me to think about slavery in the 1800s, I already have. The US wasn't the only country to have slaves, you know. Some European and some African countries had slaves long before the US did. Check your history...